Calvinism is full of false beliefs. Calvinists do not just believe some will go to Hell (as other Christians believe), they believe that all who are going to Hell are going there because they were incapable of believing in Jesus, and those that God does save cannot believe either, except that God gave them the Holy Spirit to make them believe. They believe no one can believe in Jesus on their own. Their beliefs come down to that of God creating us without the ability to believe. Calvinists say that they do not know why God chose some people to save and not others. However, the bible tells us why God saves some and not others.
The Bible says people do not believe because the god of this world has blinded their minds.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
People don’t believe because they love darkness instead of light.
“men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil.” John 3:16.
That is what the Bible says about unbelievers, that scripture is not about everyone, it is about unbelievers. Calvinists say that all, even after hearing about Jesus still love darkness instead of the light, until a special enabling of the Holy Spirit to make us believe. However, that is not what the scriptures say.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are born without being able to believe on our own. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say we are all totally depraved. Do you want to believe God’s word? On the other hand, do you want to believe man’s assumptions?
If we are so totally depraved that we cannot even believe God, then why does Paul tell us that before Jesus saved him, he had the desire to do what is good, but he could not carry it out? How could Paul have had the desire to do good if he was born totally depraved? How could Paul have said he wanted to do good? See Romans 7:18, 19.
The Bible SAYS there are those who GLADLY do right and REMEMBER GOD’S WAYS, but that they continued to sin. That is God’s word. See Isaiah 64:5-6. Why will you not believe God’s word?
Cornelius was not a Jew, but a Centurian, an excluded Gentile, excluded from citizenship in Israel and as a Gentile, he is a foreigner to the covenants of the promise. The scriptures say Cornelius and his whole family were devout and God-fearing. How could this be true about Cornelius and his whole family if God did not yet save them and cause them to be obedient? Calvinists say no one can do anything right towards God until God saves them first!
Cornelius believed in God, feared God, and was devout, see Acts 10:1-2. Though he was a Gentile, see Acts 11:1. Gentiles were excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, see Colossians 1:4-6. God did not save Cornelius yet, not until he heard the message, see Acts 11:14.
How is it that we can show scripture to Lutherans and Calvinists that their beliefs on total depravity are false, but they just continue as if they did not hear or see?
Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Did you see that? Peter realizes how true it is THAT GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM BUT ACCEPTS FROM EVERY NATION THE ONE WHO FEARS HIM AND DOES WHAT IS RIGHT.
Calvinists teach that God shows favoritism to some sinners and not other sinners for no reason but just because; unlike what the scriptures say about because they fear Him and do what is right. Calvinists say no man can fear God and do right without first being born again and the Holy Spirit causes them to believe, Calvinism goes against the words of God, for the word of God does not say what Calvinists say.
Read Luke 7:1-9. There was a man, he was NOT a Jew, but rather he was a Centurian, a Roman Gentile. The Jews said to Jesus that the Centurian man DESERVES to have Jesus heal someone for him. The Centurian was not even a Jew. Yet Jesus said concerning the Centurian, that he had not found SUCH GREAT FAITH EVEN IN ISRAEL. How could the Centurian man have faith yet? According to Calvinists, faith only comes AFTER Jesus saves a person and they become born again. GOD HAD NOT YET ALLOWED NON-JEWS, GENTILES, TO HAVE SALVATION YET.
Calvinists say that humans cannot believe on their own without God giving us the Holy Spirit first. They say that because they claim we are so totally depraved that we cannot understand enough to believe in God. However, what do the scriptures say? This is what the scriptures say about understanding— Lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your paths (see Proverbs 3:5-6). We do not even have to have understanding!
Keep in sight of the fact always, that nowhere in God’s word does it say we are born without being able to believe on our own, and nowhere does it say that we are all totally depraved. Calvinism adds to God’s word many times in their explanations of their beliefs. We are not to add to God’s word (see Deut 4:2; 5:32, Prov 30:5-6; Acts 5:25-29; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 17:11; and Revelation 22:18-19). The apostles received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life, and they wrote this down in the Scriptures (John 16:13; 2 Pet 1:3; Acts 20:20, 27; Matt 28:20; I Cor 14:37; 2 Tim 3:16, 17). The common people can understand the teachings of these inspired writers. We do not need official interpreters to understand the word, but we should use the word to check out the teachers (Mark 7:14; 2 Tim 3:15, 16, 17; John 20:30, 31; Acts 17:11; Psalm 119:105). We displease God when we follow tradition or church laws or any human standard as the source of authority for the church (Matt 15:1-14; Colo 2:8; Gala 1:6-9; Prov 14:12; 2 John 9-11; Jere 10:23). The world’s wisdom is foolishness to God (Matt 11:25; Luke 10:21; 1 Cor 1:7, 19-21, 25-27; 2:1, 4-7, 13; 3:18,19; 2 Cor 1:2; Ephe 1:8, 17; Colo 1:9; 2:3; James 1:5; 2 Pet 3:15). We do not have to read books upon books like the Calvinists do to understand and explain their false beliefs. We do not have to learn exegesis and Greek or Hebrew. Why don’t Calvinists love the word of God?
One must be careful when studying Calvinism; it is a very strange doctrine, and it will suck you in if you are not careful.
Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
Calvinists make God responsible for the sin of the world, and that just is not so. People are responsible for their own sins. The world’s sin is unbelief in Jesus. If God made all people unable to ever believe— ever, then how can it be the world’s sin? Read what Jesus says in John 16:8, 9, this scripture explains to us that the world’s sin is unbelief in Jesus.
John 16:8, 9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
In this next passage, read how many times Jesus says “whoever.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s only begotten Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
How can they reject Jesus if they are as Calvinists say “incapable” of believing Jesus?
9:41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
“Whoever” is whoever. This is plain and simple. Calvinists use special exegesis to twist the scriptures. Whomever in the world believes turns into whomever in the world of believers who believe.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. This scripture shows that Jesus saves any who come to him in belief; it is a choice of all men, if they only would not love darkness instead of the light.
God wants all men saved. Read how many times scripture says “all men.”
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 Timothy2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
That scripture right there should stop any one from ever misunderstanding and believing Calvinism ever again. How much plainer language does it have to be? “Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” All men have the chance to obey and believe.
Some of the scriptures Calvinists use to try to prove their beliefs are actually passages explaining about only the remnant of Jews being able to come to Jesus and get saved while he walked the earth. The Calvinists misunderstand about why only some were drawn.
The Remnant of Israel
Romans 11:1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3″Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
Again, the elect are the people who believe and obey Jesus. That is God’s grace that we no longer have to do the purification works and that we will be reconciled to Him by the Father and Jesus in us and us in Him.
The bible tells us that God hardened Pharaoh. Pharaoh was hardened for a reason. Calvinists like to use the scriptures of people being hardened as proof of Calvinism, but those passages really disprove Calvinism. Just the fact that some were hardened that alone should show a Calvinist that God did not create people without the ability to believe. Do Calvinists think that God created people unable to believe from the beginning, but that was not good enough so that God had the need to harden them more down the road?
God knows everything. God knows our hearts. Yes, many Jews did not believe, they were cut off and hardened while Jesus had his earthly ministry; they were hardened so that the Gentiles might obtain salvation. Paul says about the Jews, “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” (Romans 11:23) There we see too that there is a choice. Paul says, “And if they do not persist in unbelief.”
Hebrews 3:13 tells us that we too can be hardened! Hebrews 3:13, we are told to exhort one another daily lest any of you be hardened.
Calvinists say that none of us has the capability to believe and that we are totally depraved and predestined, if that is so, then why does the bible say God searches? Here are many passages that tell us God searches. What is God searching for if all are totally depraved and predestined?
1 Chronicles 28:9 “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
Psalm 7:9 O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.
Proverbs 20:27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man; it searches out his inmost being.
John 4:23 yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Calvinists teach that all are totally depraved. Again, what is God searching us for if all are totally depraved and predestined?
If we are all totally depraved, then how can we search for God?
Psalm 34:4 I sought the LORD, and he answered me; he delivered me from all my fears.
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
In addition, look at these passages.
Matthew 18:3 Jesus says to become like little children. He would not tell us to do this if children were truly born totally depraved or if they were predestined.
Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”
If total depravity is true, then there is no such thing as “good and honest” hearts.
If they are predestined, then why are they asked to do anything first?
Calvinists teach that ‘believing’ is a work. It is a work, it is the work required, and it is as easy as drinking water. Believing is the obedience required before being saved.
Romans 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
The Jews who did not already have faith in God before Jesus came were disobedient and they were the ones who didn’t have faith in Jesus and they didn’t confess and repent of their sins and do the water baptism.
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:28-29. Jesus says that believing is the work God requires.
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
Remember that Calvinists say believing is a work and that since they say it is a work, then that means, to them, that we cannot believe on our own. In addition, for those who do believe…Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit caused them to believe without their knowing or wanting. However, we do not receive the Holy Spirit before Jesus saves us. We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey.
Calvinists say we all hate God and are His enemy, and in this state of hate, God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe. We do not receive God’s Spirit if we hate God! We receive God and Jesus’ Spirit when we love God and obey.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Calvinists say we have to do nothing, not even believe. That is not biblical. The bible clearly and plainly says that we have to believe. We have to obey.
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. Acts 5:32. God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Paul says that God made the prophetic writings (the prophetic writings from the Old Testament), known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing and not a special enabling.
We are not all so evil and wicked that we cannot hear the truth and believe. Surely, some are so wicked, but obviously not all. Before Jesus saved us, we indulged in impurity. However, the Bible says we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in the impurity. We came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of our minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, see Ephesians 4:18-24.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6.
To hunger and to thirst are conditions of a person’s spirit. If it is as Calvinists say, that our spirit has nothing to do with whether or not we have salvation, then what does it matter if we hunger or thirst? If we are already saved, then why do we have to come to Jesus instead of just acknowledge him
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30.
Is weariness a work or a condition of the spirit?
“Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” Romans 10:11. Is trust too hard a work?
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13. Is calling too hard a work? Why do the scriptures say will be saved if they are already saved before believing, as the Calvinists teach?
Calvinists say we have to do nothing at all, not even believe. That is nonsensical, to say the least. We have to do that which God says to do to get saved!
In Luke 24:4, Jesus opened the minds of the apostles, so they could understand the scriptures. In Acts 16:14, Jesus opened the heart of Lydia so she could respond to Paul’s message. Jesus opened minds and hearts to people who first believed and obeyed God! Jesus did not do this to make them believe, they already believed and obeyed God. Lydia was already a worshiper of God, and Jesus’ disciples already believed and obeyed Jesus.
Calvinists insist no one can lose their salvation, but there are scriptures that tell us people can lose their salvation.
God can blot people out.
Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
God can cut people off.
Romans 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
God can assign you a place with unbelievers.
Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
We can be shamefully exposed.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
We can have our lampstand put out.
Revelation 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
We can be thrown out.
In Matthew 22:13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
We can fall.
2 Peter 1:10. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Our lamps can burn out.
Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
We can fall from grace.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
We can drift away.
Hebrews 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
We can draw back
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
We can become defiled.
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again.
Galatians 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,
You can get enticed while you were just escaping.
2 Peter 2:18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
We can be hardened by sin.
Hebrews 3:8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness,
Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
We could come into judgment.
Hebrews 10:30, 31 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Calvinists say that no one can resist. “Resist” is in this scripture.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Here Paul beseeches not to receive the grace of God in vain.
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1.
For whom did Jesus die? Jesus died for believing Jews, and for all who would believe in him after learning of him.
The Old Testament believers in God were God’s people. Not all Old Testament Jews had faith, for the law was not based on faith, the old law was based on the works of the law which are the purification works. It was the works the people had to do themselves to make themselves clean. The people who did love and believe in God, God gave them to Jesus. God’s people who loved and believed in Him, they now had to go through Jesus in faith to continue with God. They are the people who were drawn to come to Jesus during Jesus’ ministry on earth. They recognized what Jesus said as being the words of God because they already belonged to Him and were taught, see John 6:45. The Jews who did not truly have faith in God, they were cut off and hardened so they were not able to come to Jesus.
The Jews who believed in God, they recognized what Jesus said as God’s word, and in this, they are drawn.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Did you see that? Jesus says, “Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.”
Did you see that in the last sentence where Jesus says “Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me”? THAT is why they come to Jesus, because they recognize what Jesus says as God’s word!
The people were already God’s, now they would become Jesus’ people. Those who belonged to God now had to go through Jesus to remain God’s. Only a remnant, the lost sheep of Israel would come to Jesus (Matthew 10:6; 15:24).
John 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. See also, John 3:37, 39; 6:65; 10:28; 15:21-24; 16:3; 17:2, 9, 24; Romans 11:4, 5, 7; Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40. John 8:19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?” “You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
Jesus says when he is lifted up then all can come to be saved, even the Gentiles and even the Jews that were cut off and hardened. Jesus came first for the Jews who already had faith in God.
There is nothing in the Bible that says we cannot believe in God on our own. That is man’s thoughts and assumptions. Calvinism adds to God’s word and even goes against the word of God. The Bible says Jesus died for all; all have a chance for Jesus to save them. Calvinists say that Jesus did not die for all that Jesus died only for the chosen. Therefore, you have a choice before you today, to believe what is scriptural, and continue to grow in God’s Word, or to believe in what demons have begun with thoughts in man’s head. Jesus says Satan is the prince of the air. Surely, the prince of the air has put these thoughts in man’s head. I hope you choose God’s word. Search the Bible to see if anywhere in the Bible if it says we cannot believe on our own, you will not find that. Search the Bible to see if Jesus died for all, that you will find. Do not let anyone convince you with twisted doctrine.
God draws us with lovingkindness, Jeremiah 31:3. God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked, see Luke 6:35
The following are scriptures that show a loving God, and that God calls and some do not answer. They resist God.
But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Romans 10:21.
God held his hands out. The people were obstinate to God holding his hands out.
Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations–
Does it make sense that God would hold out His hands to people if He made it impossible for them to come to Him?
1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do–living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
God held out His hands to disobedient and obstinate people. They rejected God. It is their sin, their sin of rejecting God. They rejected God on their own and will be judged and punished for that. When God judges them and punishes them, it will be the sin of rejecting God. If God made them without the capability to believe, then they would be innocent.
Calvinists say that God created all people with the inability to choose Him, yet in these next scriptures, it shows that God wants the wicked to turn from their ways. Why would God plead with them to turn from their ways if they cannot choose to?
“But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.”
Isaiah 65:11-12. Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
What insanity for people to teach that God is saying that to people He knows He hasn’t ‘enabled’ to believe and repent.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
How could Paul ever think that he could save some by arousing them to envy if God saves us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to believe?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Following are more indisputable passages from the bible that show Calvinism is not biblical.
Acts 17 24″The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29″Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
You see in Acts 17:27 God wants men to seek him, and that God is not far from “each one of us.” In addition, see in 17:30 God commands “all people everywhere” to repent. Remember, Calvinists say not all men. Clearly, Calvinists beliefs are different from what God says. See also in 31, God has given proof to “all men.”
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. Acts 15:7-8.
The scripture says God who knows the heart showed that he accepted them. What does it matter what God sees in our hearts if all are totally depraved and predestined? What does it matter what God sees in our hearts if we have nothing to do with being saved?
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools. Romans 1:20-22. That scripture says they knew God and still rejected Him. According to Calvinists that is impossible.
Why do Calvinists say no one knows God but the predestined depraved elect who are chosen and regenerated, and saved and born again? How is it then that they knew God but let their hearts be darkened? That also disproves their OSAS doctrine.
This scripture and many scriptures tell us why God has not saved someone, and the scriptures do not say God did not save them because He did not enable them to believe.
If humans are totally depraved and cannot believe and obey God, then how is it even demons know there is one God and do something? They tremble. See James 2:19.
In this next scripture, Paul warns us.
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:25.
Here Paul tells us not to refuse Him who speaks; we are warned not to turn away. If we are incapable of believing, what good is that warning!
Warning against Unbelief
Hebrews 3:7-19 is about warning against unbelief. Again, why would God warn people against unbelief if they were incapable of believing?
7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Calvinists go against God’s word. Please read my other post: Disputed by Calvinists Refuted by the Truth. In that post, I refute all the scriptures Calvinists falsely use to support their doctrines.
Christian Defense of the Truth 
Ministry Addict
August 19, 2011
You state: “God wants all men saved. Read how many times scripture says ‘all men.'”
I’m not a Calvinist (at least I don’t think I am). I don’t really know enough about Calvinism to know whether I am or not. And I’m not disagreeing with you on that statement printed above or tying to convince you to think otherwise. I just have a question. You you believe God is omniscient?
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Ministry Addict
August 19, 2011
sorry for typo: It should say, “DO you believe God is omniscient?”
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AMG
August 19, 2011
I definitely believe God is Omniscient. You say you do not know if you are a Calvinist. I can ask you a few questions to help determine if you are a Calvinist. Do you believe that Jesus died for everyone? Calvinists say no. Do you believe no people can even choose to believe in Jesus without intervention of God’s grace because they are completely depraved? That would be a Calvinist belief. Do you believe that people can resist God’s grace? Calvinists say no. Those are three important questions that should help you determine if you are a Calvinist.
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Coram Deo
August 20, 2011
In other words, AMG, you think Calvinists do not believe all that the Bible teaches about God and man, instead of allowing God’s Holy Word to speak for itself. You believe Calvinists are cherry-picking prooftexts that support one’s own personal man-centered point of view.
CD
[This post edited for vulgarity]
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AMG
August 20, 2011
CD,
Did you really read my whole post? I only speak God’s word, and God’s word speaks for itself. Calvinism has to add to God’s word to explain their belief. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that we all are born without the ability to believe. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that we are all totally depraved. If you find while you are loving God that you had been believing something false, just stop believing the falseness, thank God that you have been shown the truth, and move on. Continue to grow in the Truth.
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Coram Deo
August 20, 2011
AMG,
I did read your article and reached precisely the same conclusion as atg.
I wish you would take your advice when you say “If you find while you are loving God that you had been believing something false, just stop believing the falseness, thank God that you have been shown the truth, and move on. Continue to grow in the Truth.”
CD
[edited]
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AMG
August 20, 2011
Coram Deo,
I did believe in some falseness, and then gave it up for the Truth.
Abide,
You sound like you have a lot of pride in your religion and the studying you have done. I did not think that you would give up all that, not even for the truth. You brag too much, about your studying. At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
I know what it is you believe. You believe like your father John Calvin, and you share in his spirit. Someone here called me a heretic, but I deleted it. He called me a heretic just as his father John Calvin called others and even had someone burned at the stake. Calvin was instrumental in labeling Servetus a heretic.
That is whom you all follow, and that is whom you all behave like.
I know what you believe, and because I do not believe like you, that does not mean I do not understand it. You can say it a hundred times that I do not understand it, but it will not make what you say so. Your defenses to your beliefs are, “You do not understand my religion.” However, that is not a defense.
As for what you think I sound like, you go against the word of God; therefore, do you really think I thought you would speak kindly about me? Since you go against the word of God, do you really think that it matters to me what you think of me?
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abidingthroughgrace
August 20, 2011
AMG – I’m sorry that you misunderstood the first parts of my response to your running away from resistance. I didn’t intend to boast (even though I see that it sounds like that to you). My apologies. My intention with listing my doctrinal position and study focus was to emphasize my education.
You do not know what I believe in. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE. Do you hear what I’m saying? You can not tell me that you know about my faith and my doctrinal beliefs, as much as I do. After all, what I do believe is not a secret to only me.
I’ll leave you with these parting words:
Very simply, what you wrote in this post does not represent the bulk of Calvinistic beliefs and therefore it is a critique of some my faith of which I’ve never seen. I would be very happy and pleased to share my thoughts with you my well meaning brother.
with all sincerity and hope,
abidingthroughgrace
[Edited for vulgarity]
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AMG
August 29, 2011
If we are so totally depraved that we cannot even believe God, then why does Paul tell us that before Jesus saved him, he had the desire to do what is good, but he could not carry it out? How could Paul have had the desire to do good if he was born totally depraved? How could Paul have said he wanted to do good? See Romans 7:18, 19.
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AMG
August 30, 2011
God has revealed to me even more scriptures that rebuke Calvinism. Please read my post again to find many more scriptures correcting Calvinist beliefs.
For those seriously stubborn Calvinists who will not reread my whole post over again to find the new scriptures to refute Calvinism, here are some of the additions I have made:
How can they reject Jesus if they are as Calvinists say “incapable” of believing Jesus?
9:41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED OF, see 2 Timothy 3:14.
NOWHERE DOES the scriptures say we do not have the ability to believe.
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AMG
August 30, 2011
Abiding,
In Romans 7:18 and 19, Paul is NOT speaking of himself AFTER being a saved Christian.
In verse 18, Paul says, “I know that nothing good lives in me…” YOU BELIEVE NOTHING-GOOD LIVES IN PAUL AFTER JESUS SAVES HIM. Wrong. The Holy Spirit lives in Paul after Jesus saves him; surely, Paul would not say nothing good lives in him.
In verse 21, Paul says, “So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
This is about Paul when he was under the law.
Verse 23…I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
Paul is talking about BEFORE Jesus saved him. Continue now to verse 24…What a wretched man I am!
Do you think Paul feels like a wretched man after Jesus saved him? NO! Paul says, “Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
See, Paul is describing life without the Spirit…THEN LATER HE TELLS US ABOUT BEING SAVED, IN THE NEXT CHAPTER, CHAPTER 8.
See the rest of verse 25…Paul CONTINUES to speak of a person’s life BEFORE being SAVED…”So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
HOWEVER, WHEN JESUS SAVES US—WE ARE NO LONGER A SLAVE TO THE LAW OF SIN!!! WHAT DO YOU THINK JESUS SAVES US FROM, IF NOT ALSO FROM SIN?
For you to think that we are still slaves to sin after Jesus saves us…is ridiculous. You have proven that you only believe what Calvinists have taught you. Show that you are not blinded!
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AMG
August 30, 2011
Abiding,
Paul was speaking of life under the law. I can show you more scriptures showing what condition people were under the law. However why should I look up the scriptures for you when you keep denying God’s words anyways.
You say, “You are proposing by your comments on this passage that we don’t sin once saved? Are you really thinking through what you are saying?”
You had better believe I know what I am saying. Furthermore, you had better cinch that sin you keep living in before God does.
You said, “You have built a straw man against total depravity and missed it on this passage.”
Are you kidding? You miss the whole point of your horrible lie of total depravity! I have proven from the scriptures we CAN believe, therefore nullifying your Calvinistic spirit.
You said, “I delight in the law of God”…SAVED.”
Paul is talking about the law of the Old Testament! Paul when not saved yet by Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You Calvinists like to dismiss all the things about the Jews.
You said, “You need to come face to face with your sinfulness and repent since your flesh is still full of sin (as is mine)”
Are you a baby Christian? Are you even a Christian? I am not yet perfect, but I am not like you, still being “full” of sin and not changed. Do I need to give you the scriptures about those in Christ do not continue to sin? I should have known you were still “full of sin.” You might not even have salvation yet…you do not even accept the words of God, you might have accepted another spirit.
You said, “Who will deliver me from this body of death – our sinful flesh that will be perfected in the resurrection. And praise God for verse 25,”
You have to be kidding. You bring up the resurrection, yet in this passage, there is no mention of the resurrection! Furthermore, for you to think that you will have to wait for the resurrection is false! We are to be dead to sin now, and now raised with Christ to walk in the newness of life!
You said, “My recommendation is that you should spend more time reviewing context and looking at the chapters and the books as a whole rather than cherry picking verses out of context. as an honest suggestion, read a book on Hermeneutics, like Louis Berkhof or Bernard Ramm’s Hermeneutics books that deal with language, context, figures of speech, and general rules of interpretation of the Word of God. If you are proclaiming to teach the Word of God you’ll be held at a higher standard and should take extreme care in how you interpret and how you teach.”
I get my teaching from the Holy Spirit. You get your teaching from books of dead men. All your knowledge you think you have is garbage. It has taken you further from the truth.
Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
You and your teachers have emptied the cross of Christ of its power. Repent of following falseness. Repent and live.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
Are you saying you don’t sin? Please clarify.
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AMG
August 30, 2011
I have dealt with a lot of sin. I do not live in sin as before Jesus saved me. I am not “full of sin” as you are, as you say about yourself. Now do you come here to call me a liar? I have answered your question, now answer mine… What sins have you stopped doing for the sake of the kingdom of heaven? Do not tell me about sins you never committed, tell me which sins you gave up.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
I have repented of so many sins I’ve lost count. Daily I fight against sins like pride, anger, lust, doubt, anxiety, disbelief…the list goes on and on. I repent daily of these.
Do you attend a church? If so, what kind?
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AMG
August 30, 2011
You say you have repented of so many sins you have lost count. Then why do you say you are full of sin? Are you a baby Christian? You need to obey Jesus more. You do not obey when you have disbelief and doubt. When are you going to obey concerning that? With what things do you have anxiety? You need to trust God. I mean really trust God. It is hard for me to believe that you are not a baby Christian if you are still dealing with lust. You named many sins you are still committing; it makes me wonder what sins you actually gave up. You said you “repent daily of these.” To repent means to stop doing that sin. Have you really given up any sin? Maybe you only continually say how sorry you are for sinning, but that is not repenting.
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abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
So, you are saying you are sin free?
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AMG
August 30, 2011
I am not a sinner as you say you are. Did you read anything I said? I do not live in sin as I did before Jesus saved me. What do you have to say about what I said about repenting is giving up sin and not just confessing them? You have not given up any sins have you?
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abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
I did read what you wrote. Do you still sin? Do you attend Church? If so, what kind of church?
I repent of sins everyday. I sin because it is my nature. I sin every day, thus I ask for forgiveness everyday. I have given up many sins of drunkenness, acts of sexual immorality, lying, swearing, violence, overt pride and arrogance, slander, forms of lust. These are several sins that I have given up as a result following Christ. My smaller sins now, however, are much more powerful and painful today as I am closer to Christ then my big sins were when I was first saved.
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AMG
August 30, 2011
You are the one who said you are “full of sin.” You say you sin because it is your nature, if that is so, then how can you say you have given up any sin? It sounds as if you are changing your story here and now saying you have given up sin. You say you sin because it is your nature; however, if you live by the Spirit then it is no longer in your nature. A born again Christian’s new nature is to live by the Spirit. To live by the Spirit means not to live to please the flesh.
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abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
Can you say that you sin? Or are you sin free? Can you just give me a “yes I sin” or a “no I don’t sin”?
I have given up sins as I mentioned above, but it is my nature to continue to sin as a wretched awful sinner (full of sin). I sin everyday, therefore, I am repenting and asking for forgiveness everyday.
I’m not looking for the particular church (I respect your privacy), I’m just curious what kind of church you attend, assuming you attend one. It helps me understand better who you are.
Here, I’ll do mine: I attend a small (180ish person) reformed baptist church.
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AMG
August 30, 2011
I already told you that I do not live in sin. If I do sin, then I can confess, repent, and have forgiveness. You however have said you are full of sin. You also say that you repent daily. Repenting of the same sins day after day does not tell me you have given up any sins. You defend having a sinful nature. You say you are wretched. You then say you have given up some sins. It just sounds like jive. You even still doubt the Lord and even still have disbelief. Yet you want to understand me by knowing if I have a denomination? Why do you not know me by my telling you that I do not live in sin as before Jesus saved me? Why do you not know me by my not living to a sinful nature, as you defend about yourself to living as such? Why do you not know me for my saying I am not still wretched? You are still worldly when you want to figure out who I am from a denomination. You do not have to tell me your denomination. I knew by what you said about yourself.
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abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
What harm is there in talking about what kind of church you attend? I am having trouble understanding your beliefs and I have an opinion of who you are by what you’ve said to me and how to speak to me…however, I’m keeping an open mind and wanting to converse. I trying to understand, but you won’t just talk. I’m sorry that you are so offended by conversation.
Let me ask you this question: If I am a worldly, lost, sinner following a false religion, unsaved, or a baby christian and all the other things you have said about me thus far, where is your love for my soul? Where is your Galatians 6:1 spirit? Where is your earnest concern for my fate?
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AMG
August 30, 2011
You are having trouble understanding my beliefs, just as you have trouble understanding the word of God.
Do not falsely accuse me of things. I do talk, and I do not get offended easily, even when you try to offend.
I am part of a church. I am part of the body of Christ.
You are in a false religion. According to the scriptures and according to what you have said, you could very well of received a different spirit.
You are the one who said you doubt God, and that you have disbelief. You are the one who said you are full of sin. You are the one who defends the sinful nature, and you are the one who cannot seem to believe you are talking to someone who does not live in sin. You are the one who said you are wretched. You falsely accuse me of not wanting to help you out of sin, yet you do not think that my asking what your anxieties are is my trying to help? You do not think that my encouraging you to stop your doubt and disbelief is trying to help. You have shown you are not able to make righteous judgments about me.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
Does your church have a pastor? I know it’s a ridiculous question, but humor me for a bit.
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AMG
August 30, 2011
Jesus is my Shepherd.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
Oh?
So, you don’t have a pastor?
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AMG
August 30, 2011
I told you Jesus is my Shepherd.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 30, 2011
How do you deal with 1 tim 1:15-17?
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AMG
August 30, 2011
In 1 Timothy 1:15-17, Paul is saying that he was the worst of sinners, and that by him being saved shows others who are very bad people they too can be saved. Do you think that Paul continued to be the worst of sinners after Jesus saved him? No way did Paul continue to be the worst of sinners after Jesus saved him. In fact, Paul said he was careful not to lose the prize while saving others. See 1 Corinthians 9:27.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 31, 2011
So how do you reconcile that with Jesus came – past tense and “I am” which is in the present tense in Paul’a words?
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AMG
August 31, 2011
You are seriously going to insist that Paul is saying he is the worst of sinners after Jesus saved him. Paul might very well be a worse sinner, worse than many people are, but not continually after Jesus saved him! Paul may very well be a worse sinner than you ever were…but again, not continually after Jesus saved him. Paul’s words are hard for you to understand. 2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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Abidingthroughgrace
August 31, 2011
So what about the present tense?
Tell me who Jesus is in detail. Give me the gospel. I’d like to know.
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AMG
August 31, 2011
The present tense is that Paul is the worst of sinners as a comparison to other sinners! I guess Paul feels he has earned the title of the worst sinner when he spoke to those around him. Paul was a violent man who gave approval to Stephen’s death. So, you still do not understand. You really believe Paul meant he is sinning continually. Please consider this more carefully! Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
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AMG
August 31, 2011
You said, “Tell me who Jesus is in detail. Give me the gospel.”
Read my posts…then we can talk more about it if you still want.
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abidingthroughgrace
August 31, 2011
Amg, Oh, I understand just fine. Present tense indicative mood form of “I am” = presently the worst…it goes with Romans 7 as we discussed earlier. I’m plenty comfortable with my understanding of scriptures and I was just confirming what you believe…I have a pretty clear idea of who you are at this point.
Now, I’d like to know who you say Jesus is. I’ve read your posts. Who do you say Jesus is. I want to know if we believe in the same Jesus.
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AMG
August 31, 2011
Present pretense that Paul has the title of worse sinner compared to other sinners. I cannot believe that you think Paul continued to not only hold the title of worst sinner but that he continued to sin the worst sins after Jesus saved him!
We do not believe in the same Paul…so do not know how we can believe in the same Jesus.
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AMG
August 31, 2011
My Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Your Jesus is not.
My God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
Yours does not.
My Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all men.
Yours did not.
My Jesus tells us to believe.
Your Jesus made us without the capability to believe.
Does it sound to you that we believe in the same Jesus?
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AMG
August 31, 2011
Paul was talking about the hopeless struggle with sin before Jesus saves us. See in Romans 7:7-20, Paul is explaining how it is to live under the law before having the Spirit. See what he says in Romans 7:10 “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death” In Romans 7:24-25 Paul says, “who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” You see, through the Spirit, Jesus saves us from the hopeless kind of struggle with sin. In Romans 8:37 Paul says “No, in all these things we are more than conquerors though him who loved us.” Yes we work out our salvation, but it is not hopeful and peaceful and life changing to believe that Paul is talking about life even after receiving the Spirit. See Romans 8, it is about how different our lives will be through the Spirit. Romans 8:12-13 “Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”
If it is as you say, then how do you think we ever do give up any sins? 1 Corinthians 9:27 “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
Also see Hebrews 5:14 “But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”
The Lord strengthens us. With your explanation of it makes us sound like hopeless slaves to sin, but we are not. See Romans 6:17-18 “But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”
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AMG
August 31, 2011
Christians are perfect and holy. We do not refer to ourselves as wretches, not after Jesus saves us by his blood that was shed on the cross!
Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
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AMG
August 31, 2011
About NOT sinning—
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “the Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
Acts 26:17, 18 …I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Read all of Romans Chapter 6-7
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AMG
August 31, 2011
Give up your false beliefs about Paul and sinning and you will have to give up your false Calvin doctrine/s. Paul desired to do good before Jesus saved him! Paul wanted to do good! Oh how I love knowing and understanding God! Oh how I love His powerful Truth, Jesus Christ.
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AMG
September 12, 2011
Here is a biblical truth that punches out Calvinism—if humans are so totally depraved, as stated by Calvinists, so totally depraved that we cannot believe in God on our own, then how is it that even demons know that there is One God? Calvinists, give up your false beliefs, repent, and turn to believing in only God’s Word.
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davidbibee
October 16, 2011
Ya, I have to agree with Abidingthroughgrace when they said: “Very simply, what you wrote in this post does not represent the bulk of [what Calvinists believe]…”
You just built a straw man caricature, said it was Calvinism, and then proceeded to attempt to punch holes in it. You didn’t actually address the historical Reformed position. Also, to claim that there is no biblical ground for the doctrines of Grace is wholly inaccurate.
Dr. Roger Olson, Arminian theologian and author of “Against Calvinism” even says in the forward he wrote for the companion volume “For Calvinism” by Michael Horton that, although he disagrees with Dr. Horton’s understanding, “this [Calvinist] theology has an impressive historical pedigree and, as Mike demonstrates, much biblical support.” (Source: http://www.monergismbooks.com/pdfs/forcalvinism.pdf, pg 10)
You can say, on one hand, that you think Calvinism is incorrect. It’s intellectually dishonest, however, to claim there is no biblical support for it.
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AMG
October 16, 2011
You said: Ya, I have to agree with Abidingthroughgrace when they said: “Very simply, what you wrote in this post does not represent the bulk of [what Calvinists believe]…”You just built a straw man caricature, said it was Calvinism, and then proceeded to attempt to punch holes in it. You didn’t actually address the historical Reformed position. Also, to claim that there is no biblical ground for the doctrines of Grace is wholly inaccurate.
My reply: I know what Calvinism is and what they believe. The only straw man caricature is that you say I do not know Calvinism! What you use for an argument is not an original or classic defense for Calvinism; in fact, it is no defense at all. Your assumptions are unfounded. This post alone explains away Calvinism as a false doctrine that goes against the Word of God. However, I have other posts that should blow you away with the truth, if that is what you are really wanting, the truth that is. Read Disputed by Calvinists Refuted by the Truth, and Faith and Hope.
You said: Dr. Roger Olson, Arminian theologian and author of “Against Calvinism” even says in the forward he wrote for the companion volume “For Calvinism” by Michael Horton that, although he disagrees with Dr. Horton’s understanding, “this [Calvinist] theology has an impressive historical pedigree and, as Mike demonstrates, much biblical support.”
My reply: You are infatuated with theologians and men of PhD’s. However, did you ever think for a moment what the Spirit of God thinks about that? If you cared about what God says, or if you knew the Lord, you would also believe the same as the Lord about the wise and educated, you would never proudly use what they say as a defense.
You said: You can say, on one hand, that you think Calvinism is incorrect. It’s intellectually dishonest, however, to claim there is no biblical support for it.
My reply: There is nowhere in the Bible that says humans cannot believe in God on their own without the enabling of the Holy Spirit. Have you read anything that I said in my post? You did not try to correct any of my scriptural explanations; you only attacked me personally. How dare you say what I say is intellectually dishonest, when you have not taken the scriptures I explained and attempt to correct any of them. Calvinism is full of false doctrines, and the Word of God easily corrects them.
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davidbibee
October 16, 2011
But this is the problem: If you are attempting to argue against someone’s views and explain what those people believe in a way that they would say doesn’t represent their view accurately, that is a straw man. That is a logical fallacy. To attack a straw man is, “to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”
As a full fledged “Calvinist”, I am saying that you did not represent the doctrines of Grace accurately. I say it’s intellectually dishonest just because it isn’t an accurate representation, not that I think you are being purposely malicious or anything. Some of the things you assert here, like the fact that everyone who calls the name of the Lord will be saved, that everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved, etc.
But a lot of the verses you use to “refute” certain Calvinist ideas are completely out of context, and just don’t say what you are trying to make them say. The fact that Jesus tells us to have faith like children doesn’t nullify the fact that Scripture also says that there is no one good, no one seeks God, no one is righteous, we are together worthless (Rom. 3:10-12). Jesus said that He only laid His life down for His sheep (ie. he did not atone for everyone’s sin), which means that you need to hold this verse up next to the verses that claim universal atonement and allow them to work together. Either Jesus died for those He intended to save or He died for the entire world. He didn’t do both. Since He specifically identified who He died for, that means we must understand the word world rightly. Also, saying that whoever believes in Him will be saved is completely true (every Calvinist would agree), and does not take away from the fact that ONLY those appointed to eternal life WILL believe (Acts 13:48).
Anyway, these conversations aren’t really getting us anywhere, and I don’t enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no grace displayed in such kinds of arguments. The problem I have with Arminian understanding is that it is wholly man-centered instead of God-centered, we are in charge and He must obey, we are sovereign and he becomes impotent and incapable. Since Scripture cannot contradict itself, we have to let Scripture interpret itself, and certain assertions that are made by the Arminian crowd set Scripture against itself, forcing contradictions to occur.
I’m in this for the dialogue, not to have a shouting match with you.
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AMG
October 16, 2011
David,
You said: But this is the problem: If you are attempting to argue against someone’s views and explain what those people believe in a way that they would say doesn’t represent their view accurately, that is a straw man. That is a logical fallacy. To attack a straw man is, “to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”
My reply: I am not just attempting to do anything. I have succeeded in writing a post that exposes Calvinism for the falseness it is. Your tactic is only to attack me personally, instead of going over the scriptures I posted and the explanations I gave. You prove my point with this latest comment of yours, again falsely accusing me of using straw-man tactics.
You said: As a full fledged “Calvinist”, I am saying that you did not represent the doctrines of Grace accurately. I say it’s intellectually dishonest just because it isn’t an accurate representation, not that I think you are being purposely malicious or anything. Some of the things you assert here, like the fact that everyone who calls the name of the Lord will be saved, that everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved, etc.
My reply: Calvinists go against God in full-fledged fashion, and I expose it, so course, you do not like the way I represent your false doctrines. As for you bringing up the scripture about everyone who calls the name of the Lord will be saved—THAT IS WHAT THE LORD SAYS, yet you say it is just something I assert. You go against the Word of God with insults on top of it.
You said: But a lot of the verses you use to “refute” certain Calvinist ideas are completely out of context, and just don’t say what you are trying to make them say. The fact that Jesus tells us to have faith like children doesn’t nullify the fact that Scripture also says that there is no one good, no one seeks God, no one is righteous, we are together worthless (Rom. 3:10-12).
My reply: Another groundless defense for Calvinists is to say, “You are taking it out of context.” So far, with you we get all the typical arguments. In fact, if you want to debate with me any further, you cannot use those tactics anymore, no personally attacking, nor can you use the phrases “You do not understand my religion,” or “You are taking it out of context,” or “That is a straw-man defense.” Do you understand?
You said: Jesus said that He only laid His life down for His sheep (ie. he did not atone for everyone’s sin), which means that you need to hold this verse up next to the verses that claim universal atonement and allow them to work together.
My reply: If you are going to debate me, then you MUST really read my posts and not pretend as if you did. I have explained this in detail in my posts. I will explain it to you here briefly. When Jesus came, he offered salvation first to the Jews, and not just all Jews, but only the Jews who already believed in God! I love God’s Word, and I love defending and contending! Now acknowledge what I said about whom God came to save first, acknowledge it and you have to give up a major Calvinism belief!
You said: Anyway, these conversations aren’t really getting us anywhere, and I don’t enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no grace displayed in such kinds of arguments. The problem I have with Arminian understanding is that it is wholly man-centered instead of God-centered, we are in charge and He must obey, we are sovereign and he becomes impotent and incapable.
My reply: Please do not ever call or refer to me as an Arminian. God’s Word says not to say we follow mere men. In addition, Arminius was a believer in infant baptism, and that goes against the Word of God. Here is a question for you—How does my beliefs make it that God has to obey me? How do my beliefs make me sovereign? God created me with free will. The Word of God came FIRST, and it came to me, My Master said do this and do that, and I did what my Master said. Your false beliefs have blinded you.
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davidbibee
October 16, 2011
There’s no need to be so angrily defensive. I haven’t been attacking you personally or insulted you, I obviously don’t know you and can’t comment on who you are. I simply explained that the way you presented Calvinism is a caricature of what Calvinism really is. If anything, after reading this “refutation” I am more convinced that the doctrines of Grace are wholly grounded in the Scriptures. I’m not going to argue about it anymore.
We are both creatures who have been saved by the undeserved and glorious grace of a Merciful and Holy God. Salvation alone is found through faith in Christ Jesus, Who came as a man, lived a sinless life, died an atoning death for our sins, and was raised to life on the third day and is now glorified in the presence of the Father. The Holy Spirit moves among us to love the Lord more fully, grow in holiness, and be conformed to the image of Christ. Each of us will be welcomed in by our King on the last day, because it is grace through faith which has brought us out of death and into life.
With that, I can say you are a brother in Christ, although I think you are mistaken concerning certain doctrinal issues. You are still a brother whom our Lord gave His life to save. For that, we are family.
I pray that the Lord will bless and keep you, inspire you to an even greater love of Him, and fill you with all the fruits of the Spirit, that you life may be a shining beacon and a testament to the Risen Lord.
David
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AMG
October 16, 2011
You said: There’s no need to be so angrily defensive. I haven’t been attacking you personally or insulted you, I obviously don’t know you and can’t comment on who you are. I simply explained that the way you presented Calvinism is a caricature of what Calvinism really is. If anything, after reading this “refutation” I am more convinced that the doctrines of Grace are wholly grounded in the Scriptures. I’m not going to argue about it anymore.
My reply: You are falsely judging me as angry and defensive. I asked you not to personally attack, yet you come here and say that. I do not think you want to discuss the truth, nor do you want the truth. You do not go over any scriptures and explanations.
You said: We are both creatures who have been saved by the undeserved and glorious grace of a Merciful and Holy God. Salvation alone is found through faith in Christ Jesus, Who came as a man, lived a sinless life, died an atoning death for our sins, and was raised to life on the third day and is now glorified in the presence of the Father. The Holy Spirit moves among us to love the Lord more fully, grow in holiness, and be conformed to the image of Christ. Each of us will be welcomed in by our King on the last day, because it is grace through faith which has brought us out of death and into life.
My reply: Calvinists teach about a Jesus who is different from my Jesus. My Jesus died for the sins of the world. Your Jesus did not. My Jesus died so that he can save all men. Your Jesus did not. Does that sound like we believe in the same Jesus? You tell me what you think.
You said: With that, I can say you are a brother in Christ, although I think you are mistaken concerning certain doctrinal issues. You are still a brother whom our Lord gave His life to save. For that, we are family.
My reply: I gave you the beautiful, pure truth of God’s Word about who Jesus offered salvation to first, and you just ignore it as if it was rubbish on the ground. How can you do that?
You said: I pray that the Lord will bless and keep you, inspire you to an even greater love of Him, and fill you with all the fruits of the Spirit, that you life may be a shining beacon and a testament to the Risen Lord.
My reply: The Lord has blessed me greatly, and he keeps me. God has blessed me in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. I know and understand God, in this, I can boast, and in this, I do boast.
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AMG
October 18, 2011
I want to say to Calvinists who read this post of mine about Calvinism, that I did not write this post just for you. I wrote this post not only to try to persuade you to believe in the truth, but also to strengthen Christians who already believe the truth.
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ken hubbard
October 24, 2011
TITUS 3: 3-7 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
ROMANS 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
ROMANS 3:10-12 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
EPHESIANS 3; 1-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. OK. Here are some verses from the Bible that speak of man’s condition and salvation. In Titus, the salvation process is delineated. Man’s will is absent. In Romans 8, God says Man in his lost condition cannot, as in lacks ability, subject himself to the law of God. In Romans 3, God says that there is no man that “DOES” good. And in the first chapter of Ephesians 3, God more than graciously reveals that salvation is a matter of predestination according to His will and not man’s. John 1:12-14 reiterates this. AMG, your challenge is with the sovereignty of God. Your posts assume that man is sovereign over his own soul and not God. If that is so, you have a challenge indeed. You have gone the way of Genesis 3:5, you insinuate that man determines for himself what is good and evil – and that he can know good apart from God’s revelation.
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AMG
October 25, 2011
TITUS 3: 3-7 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
My reply: Titus 3:3-7 is about how God saved us because He is merciful, and not by any works of righteousness, we have done. How do ever get that this supports Calvinism? Jesus came, showed us the Way, we believe and he saves us, or we reject and are condemned. This passage tells us that God did not base His decision to save us because of anything we did, but God made the plan of salvation because He is merciful.
ROMANS 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
My reply: Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:5-8.
This is about the mind set on the sinful nature; however, there are people who have their minds on Jesus, after being taught, persuaded, and convinced, see Romans 10:14; Colossians 1:5-7; 2 Timothy 3:14; 2 Corinthians 5:11. In addition, please read my post Faith and Hope.
ROMANS 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
My reply: Paul is quoting Ecclesiastes where Solomon SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Please see Ecclesiastes 7:20.
EPHESIANS 3; 1-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
My reply: Read the passage carefully. The plan is predestined. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE. What this scripture says is that God predestined us according to the plan, and the plan is that we have access to grace though faith!
You said: AMG, your challenge is with the sovereignty of God. Your posts assume that man is sovereign over his own soul and not God. If that is so, you have a challenge indeed. You have gone the way of Genesis 3:5, you insinuate that man determines for himself what is good and evil – and that he can know good apart from God’s revelation.
My reply: Do you only repeat what your teachers say without studying for yourself? Why do Calvinists claim that non-Calvinists do not know God is Sovereign? My Master sent people to preach the message, the message came to me, my Master said do this and do that, I did what my Master said to do, so how does that make me sovereign?
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ken hubbard
October 25, 2011
Your last reply reveals to me that you don’t understand sovereignty. What is your definition of Sovereignty? If God is sovereign, how does that relate to predestination? Regarding the Titus passage, would say that you believing in Him is your “work of righteousness” or a work of God?
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ken hubbard
October 25, 2011
You told David Bibee that you do not want to be called an “Arminian”. However, your writing speaks for itself, that you are one. You have to know that the doctrines that you write about have been said before. Actually, not only Arminian doctrine do you follow, but Pelagius in the fourth centruy came up with this before Arminius. You are not writing anything new. The church throughout history has already dealt with with these two men. You can say that you are not one, but you are agreement with their teachings. It’s as if you have read them.
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AMG
October 26, 2011
It would be a sin for me to call myself an Arminian, and for you to do so. I do not even believe like most Arminians, they believe humans cannot believe without a special enabling, as you can see, I do not believe that, it is not in the Bible. Stop trying to make this about finding me a mere man to say I follow. I am not Pelagius, or Arminius, nor anyone else, but I bare the name of Christ. I am a Christian. I am only writing what the Word of God says. God reveals Himself to me. I know and understand God. If you want to continue discussing the Bible with me, then fine, but stick to the scriptures and the topic.
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AMG
October 25, 2011
I know what sovereign means, and I know what sovereign means according to the false beliefs of Calvinism. God is Sovereign, and God created humans with the ability to choose. What do you not get about there being nowhere in the Bible that says we cannot believe on our own after learning of Jesus? As for you asking about believing, and whether or not it is a work…Calvinists teach that ‘believing’ is a work. However, believing is like drinking water. In addition, if it is a work, it is the work required. Moreover, what kind of work is drinking?
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:28-29. Jesus says that believing is the work God requires.
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
I want to talk more about the passage in Titus and your question… God made the plan for salvation before the creation of the world, and that shows that He did not plan to save us by anything we have done, but that God was merciful, and that before the creation of the world, He made the plan to save us through Jesus Christ. There is nothing we can do now, no matter how grand, for God to save us, because we are not saved by any righteous acts, only by believing in His Son are we saved. In addition, for Jesus to save us, we only have to hear the message, and then we have to believe. We have access by faith. In the Old Covenant, God chose the Jews as a people to Himself, by outward signs and the law of works, but in the New Covenant, God saves us by what is inside a person, by faith we have access to salvation by God, through Jesus Christ.
The Word of God says we are all the same, we are all sinners, and there is no difference. Why God would choose some over others and for no reasons whatsoever proves a dead end for Calvinism. The Bible tells us why God says some and not others, and the reasons are not the reasons, or lack of reasons the Calvinists give. Read my other post Why People Do Not Believe.
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AMG
October 28, 2011
Ken,
I hope all is well with you. I tried to visit your blog site, but I could not find it. When you come back, will you leave a link for me?
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ken hubbard
October 28, 2011
Amg, I have no doubt that you love Jesus and have a high respect for His Word. I would like to continue a discussion about His Word with you. However, we must first talk about presuppositions because it effects your vision when it comes to all of life (worldview) and how you look at the scriptures. As long as you presuppose that man is sovereign over his own will, and that faith is born in man alone, you will interpret the scriptures accordingly. If you believe that God is sovereign (rules and controls everything) and that faith is a gift that God gives us through His Holy Spirit (as in Titus and Ephesians 2), that raises us from the dead so that we can then believe, you will see the scriptures in a different light. You have a great presupposition in that you believe the Word of God to be the Word of God and that is the starting point of interpreting all of life. There is an incorrect presupposition in that you think that you alone can interpret the Bible correctly. You still live in a body that is affected by the sin nature and that you don’t need anyone’s help – despite all the scriptures that talk about one-anothering and Ephesians passage about leaders (one a teacher) in the church equipping us for ministry and to avoid false doctrine. The Bible says a child left to himself will only come to ruin. We have two thousand years of Christian history, and two thousand years of learning, and two thousand years of great men of God who have well studied the scriptures and have come to certain conclusions. To throw all that all away in the name of your presupposition that you can understand all the Bible by yourself, is contrary to the theology of the Trinity and God’s warning that “it is not good that man is alone.” As an example, drinking: who created you with the ability to drink? Who provided the water? Who provided the desire? Who put you in the situation to need the water? Who provided you with the life? Who made you and gave you the ability to make the decision? Who made you with the ability to even think about it? My whole point is that your presupposition starts with man and his abilities to drink instead of the sovereign God who planned it all and created it all to happen. This effects how you interpret the scriptures and why you have trouble believing Calvinism. You keep saying: “What do you not get about there being nowhere in the Bible that says we cannot believe on our own after learning of Jesus?”. There is an abundance of scriptures that say that very thing, but you cannot see them because your vision is affected by your presupposition. Here’s my blog site. http://patternsofgod.wordpress.com/
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AMG
October 28, 2011
You said: As long as you presuppose that man is sovereign over his own will, and that faith is born in man alone, you will interpret the scriptures accordingly.
My reply: As long you hang on to what Calvinists taught you, that a Sovereign God did not make us with free will you will forever be stuck in the life of Calvinism. The Sovereign God made humans with a free will, and we must obey what the Sovereign God says to do, or He will not save us. The Sovereign God already knew before the creation of the world which people would choose Him. You have believed the lies of Calvinism, and you have been indoctrinated so much so, that you say the typical falseness about non-Calvinists and believing God is Sovereign over all! Now, after reading what I said about the Sovereign God, how could you ever think that it makes me sovereign in the salvation process? You need to start answering questions, as I do for you.
You said: If you believe that God is sovereign (rules and controls everything) and that faith is a gift that God gives us through His Holy Spirit (as in Titus and Ephesians 2), that raises us from the dead so that we can then believe, you will see the scriptures in a different light.
My reply: What I am going to say next will help you to understand what Calvinists keep denying when it comes to understanding their own beliefs. I have debated many Calvinists, and they all say I do not understand that their beliefs do not mean God made us without the ability to believe. However, let me ask you what you asked me, and I hope you answer and the answer will be that you now understand better the falseness of what Calvinists have taught you. My question to you is, IF YOU believe (as a Calvinist), that God is sovereign (rules and controls everything) and that faith is a gift that God gives us through His Holy Spirit, that raises us from the dead so that we can THEN BELIEVE, how is it that you do not understand then, that this God in which you believe, made humans without the capability to believe? The God the Calvinists believes in is a God that made us without the capability to believe! You cannot get around having that as a core to your belief! In addition, your beliefs make God responsible for the sins of the world. Jesus says the sins of the world is UNBELIEF IN HIM.
You said: You have a great presupposition in that you believe the Word of God to be the Word of God and that is the starting point of interpreting all of life. There is an incorrect presupposition in that you think that you alone can interpret the Bible correctly.
My reply: Calvinists, and all those in false religions and doctrines always resort to personal attacks and insults as you are doing here. Stop making this about what you think of me personally. You are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of, and that you that you think that Calvinist leaders alone can interpret the Bible correctly.
You said: You still live in a body that is affected by the sin nature and that you don’t need anyone’s help – despite all the scriptures that talk about one-anothering and Ephesians passage about leaders (one a teacher) in the church equipping us for ministry and to avoid false doctrine.
My reply: Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” It is wrong for you to say I have not had help from anyone else! It is true though, that I have had more people who tried to confuse me over people who have helped me in the truth. Moreover, the Bible says to check on what others teach us! I can give you many scripture that teach you that, but I do not think you will read them.
You said: The Bible says a child left to himself will only come to ruin. We have two thousand years of Christian history, and two thousand years of learning, and two thousand years of great men of God who have well studied the scriptures and have come to certain conclusions.
My reply: Jesus will never forsake a child of God! You are too worldly in your understandings. In addition, you are overcome by the awe of men, and so it will be the ruin of you, unless you submit to only wanting God’s Truth and not man’s truth. You are not thirsty for God’s Truth, but you are in love with the Calvinists of the past.
You said: To throw all that all away in the name of your presupposition that you can understand all the Bible by yourself, is contrary to the theology of the Trinity and God’s warning that “it is not good that man is alone.”
My reply: I am not alone, I have the Spirit of God and Jesus who have made their home in me, and I in them. I have the written Word of God. I have Jesus’ teachings that I obey.
You said: As an example, drinking: who created you with the ability to drink? Who provided the water? Who provided the desire? Who put you in the situation to need the water? Who provided you with the life? Who made you and gave you the ability to make the decision? Who made you with the ability to even think about it? My whole point is that your presupposition starts with man and his abilities to drink instead of the sovereign God who planned it all and created it all to happen. This effects how you interpret the scriptures and why you have trouble believing Calvinism.
My reply: I have no trouble seeing Calvinism. It is a lie against God’s Word. In addition, you have a lot of man’s wisdom you want to spew out; however, man’s wisdom is rubbish. You think the scriptures are not understandable, but you are wrong. Read what the Bible says. How from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, see 2 Timothy 3:15. We do not need elected leaders to interpret God’s word, but we should use the word to check out the teachers, see Mark 7:14; 2 Timothy 3:15, 16, 17; John 20:30, 31; Acts 17:11; and, Psalm 119:105. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 1:13,14. We displease God when we follow tradition or church laws or any human standard as the source of authority for the church (Matthew 15:1-14; Colossians 2:8; Galatians 1:6-9; Proverbs 14:12; 2 John 9-11; Jeremiah 10:23).
You said: You keep saying: “What do you not get about there being nowhere in the Bible that says we cannot believe on our own after learning of Jesus?”. There is an abundance of scriptures that say that very thing, but you cannot see them because your vision is affected by your presupposition. Here’s my blog site. http://patternsofgod.wordpress.com/
My reply: Yeah, it is so hard to see anywhere in the scriptures what Calvinism teaches because it is not there in the scriptures what Calvinists teach, Calvinists have to assume it, and you put up with it well enough! I would like you to answer one question at a time. First question: If we cannot believe on our own without God enabling us with the Holy Spirit, then why does God have to harden anyone? Answer that!
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AMG
October 29, 2011
Hey, Ken, where are you? Why do you not answer my questions and comment on my explanations of the scriptures? Have you sworn your life to Calvin?
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ken hubbard
October 29, 2011
AMG said: If we cannot believe on our own without God enabling us with the Holy Spirit….. So, you then believe that you can believe on your own without God enabling you. What is the source of your enabling then if not from God? Most calvinist believe that the fall of Adam lead to a sin nature – making us all slaves to sin “Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”. And that sin permeates all of man’s being including his ability of will. It was no longer “free” but a slave to sin. Romans 6:17-18 “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.” It was Christ who set you free and not yourself. Then you were able to be a slave of God. After the fall, we lost the ability to do good as God defines it – we had only the ability to sin in whatever manner we desired. We were dead (Romans 6:1-4) and dead men can’t make decisions about life. We were without strength, Romans 5:6 “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.” Without strength means the inability. We were sinners Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Sinners can’t die for themselves nor choose rightly to be saved. And we were enemies Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” You were reconciled while you were his enemy – saved by His work not by you becoming a traitor to your slavemaster sin. Now, with these scriptures, we read Titus 3 again and you find that God decides to impart His Holy Spirit in you – not because you believe, but because of His the council of His own predetermined will, and that gives you the faith that Hebrews 11 talks about, so that then you have the ability to believe and follow. God raises you from the dead (born again – as though you had a choice in being born) which then makes you alive and gives you the ability to act as though you were no longer dead, with the strength of the Holy Spirit, and as a child of God instead of an enemy.
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AMG
October 29, 2011
You said: So, you then believe that you can believe on your own without God enabling you. What is the source of your enabling then if not from God?
My reply: It is not so much to believe even the demons does that! We have to obey Jesus’ teachings, when we obey Jesus’ teachings, we will receive the Holy Spirit. That is scripture! That is the Word of God! See Acts 2:38; and Acts 5:30-32 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” …the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” Jesus said. John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. ”
You said: Most calvinist believe that the fall of Adam lead to a sin nature – making us all slaves to sin “Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”. And that sin permeates all of man’s being including his ability of will. It was no longer “free” but a slave to sin. Romans 6:17-18 “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.” It was Christ who set you free and not yourself.
My reply: If Jesus did not come, we would not have the opportunity for Jesus to save us. So how does any of what you said mean we were incapable of believing?
You said: After the fall, we lost the ability to do good as God defines it – we had only the ability to sin in whatever manner we desired. We were dead (Romans 6:1-4) and dead men can’t make decisions about life. We were without strength, Romans 5:6 “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.” Without strength means the inability. We were sinners Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Sinners can’t die for themselves nor choose rightly to be saved.
My reply: That is a Calvinist, man-made belief, for nowhere in the scriptures does it say we are so dead that we cannot believe when we hear the good news. However, we are too dead to stop sinning without the help of the Holy Spirit. In addition, when we do sin, we have Jesus interceding for us! Again, that does not mean we are so dead we cannot believe the message! Let go of the false brain washing of Calvinism. What do you think of this: We did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity…we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, to be made new in the attitude of our minds, and to put on the new self, created to be like in true righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24.
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ken hubbard
October 30, 2011
Again, God has to give you His Holy Spirit first before you can believe, before you can have faith, before you can do any good work? You think that belief comes before God gives you His Spirit and that presupposition gives a bias to your interpretations. You said: we were not so dead! Are you kidding me? Is there another kind? You said What does it matter what other men wrote? Then why do you write because according to you we shouldn’t take any merit in what you say? what’s your point then? You don’t take any merit in Great men of the faith expounding on what they believe about the scriptures. That is a greater commentary on you then it is of them. I have changed my mind, you don’t love the scriptures…..you love what you think the scriptures say.
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ken hubbard
October 29, 2011
Regarding predestination and freewill, Augustine in his argument against Pelagius, wrote this: “Man cannot be said to have even that will with which he believes in God, without having received it” “Do we then by grace make void free will? God forbid! Nay, rather we establish free will. For even as the law by faith, so free will by grace is not made void but established. For neither is the law fulfilled except by free will: but by the law is the knowledge of sin, by faith the acquisition of grace against sin, by grace the healing of the soul from the disease of sin, by health of the soul freedom of will, by free will the love of righteousness, by love of righteousness the accomplishment of the law. Accordingly, as the law is not made void, but is established through faith, since faith procures grace whereby the law is fulfilled, so free will is not made void through grace, but is established, since grace cures the will whereby righteousness is freely loved.” In other words, the very ground of man’s freedom is the predestination of God.” This exhortation was later developed by Luther against Erasmus, and by Calvin against Pighius.
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AMG
October 29, 2011
I do not give merit at all to the words of mere men. However, I love the written word of God. Therefore, what does it matter what Augustine, Pelagius, and Calvin wrote? I tell you it matters if they teach against God’s Word! Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11; Romans 4:21.
See 1 Thessalonians 1:3, their WORK produced faith, their work of teaching and preaching! We continually remember before our God and Father YOUR WORK PRODUCED FAITH, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are WRITTEN that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by BELIEVING you may have life in his name. So then, brothers and sisters, STAND FIRM and HOLD FAST to the TEACHINGS we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. See 2 Thessalonians 2:15-17.
NOWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAY WE CANNOT BELIEVE IN JESUS AFTER LEARNING OF HIM. BELIEVING THAT WE CANNOT BELIEVE IN JESUS AFTER LEARNING OF HIM IS A MAN-MADE BELIEF.
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AMG
October 30, 2011
You said: Again, God has to give you His Holy Spirit first before you can believe, before you can have faith, before you can do any good work?
My reply: Nowhere in the scriptures does it say we get the Holy Spirit BEFORE we believe. That is a man made belief. Do not believe in man made beliefs; only believe in God’s word. God’s word says we receive the Holy Spirit after we obey. That is God’s word. That is the only thing you are required to believe, God’s word.
You said: You think that belief comes before God gives you His Spirit and that presupposition gives a bias to your interpretations.
My reply: Are you just going to ignore the fact that the scriptures do NOT say we receive the Holy Spirit to make us believe?
You said: Is there another kind?
My reply: We are dead in our sins, but that does not mean we cannot believe after learning of Jesus!
You said: What does it matter what other men wrote? Then why do you write because according to you we shouldn’t take any merit in what you say?
My reply: I knew you would say that. It does not matter what mere men write when they give assumptions to what they think God means, like Calvin saying we are so dead we cannot even believe! That is a man made doctrine. I only speak the word of God, so why not listen to me.
You said: I have changed my mind, you don’t love the scriptures…..you love what you think the scriptures say.
My reply: Show me one scripture I said says something but it does not. Show me just one place where I did that. Stop with the fatuous remarks.
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AMG
October 30, 2011
Ken,
I go through everything you say carefully, and I try to answer everything you bring up. Why do you not do the same for me? On the other hand, at least answer the questions I ask you! You still have not answered the question I asked you about God hardening people. Why did God have to harden people if they cannot believe anyway? Please answer that question.
Here is something else I would like to talk to you about… What do you call a RIGHTEOUS WORK? What exactly do you think that means? Do you think if you admit you are a sinner that that is a righteous work? If you repent of and stop committing adultery on your wife, is that a righteous work? Do you think that if you confess and repent of stealing that is a righteous work? If those are righteous works, do you think we do NOT have to do them? In addition, if those righteous kinds of works only come about when we receive the Holy Spirit, then how did the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem go out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. See Mark 1:5. When we are told, we are not saved by righteous acts that does not mean we are not to do right! We are not SAVED by righteous acts because even the righteous do not do what is right and never sin. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. If we were saved by the righteous things we do, then those who do not believe in Jesus could be saved!
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John
October 30, 2011
Amg,
Being a Calvinist always get the bad rep! I like to call myself a Biblicist. I want to read the word of God in his context not mine. I am no scholar and I am not very smart but this I know, if my salvation is up to me, I will be in hell. The whole discussions boil down to this, is man capable of crossing God without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit? We don’t ave to get ugly but ask the Holy Spirit to reveal God’s word to us. I can send you many literatures on the subject but it won’t help. I am sure you can send me tons of books on what you believe. The Bible is our only source. I just like to share the following with you. Not to show you that I have it all together but I am still in need of God’s grace. God bless,
Unconditional Election
1. God is Sovereign
• Exo 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
• 1Ch 29:11-12 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
• 2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
• Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
A) He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything
• Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
• 1Sa 2:6-8 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them.
• Job 9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
• Job 12:6-10 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
• Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
• Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
• Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
• Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
• Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
• Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
• Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
* Including matters of “chance”
• Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
• 1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?…1Ki 22:34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded. …1Ki 22:37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.
* The wicked actions of men
• Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
• Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
• Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
• Jdg 14:1-4 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.
• Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
• Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
• Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
• Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
• Act 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
• Act 4:27-28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
* The actions of evil spirits
• 1Sa 16:14-16 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
• 1Ki 22:19-23 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
• 1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel./2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
* The good actions of men
• Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
• Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
• Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
• For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
* The actions of good angels
• Psa 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
• Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
* The actions of animals
• Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
• 1Ki 17:4 And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.
• Psa 29:9 The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.
• Jer 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
• Eze 32:4 Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.
• Dan 6:22 My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions’ mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.
* The operations of all creation
• Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
• Psa 104:5-10 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.
• Psa 104:13-14 He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works. He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
• Psa 104:19-20 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down. Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.
• Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
) Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts
• Job 33:12-13 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man. Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
• Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
• Isa 45:9-10 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
• Mat 20:1-16 [Parable of the laborers of the vineyard]
• Rom 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
2. God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordaines ]
) His angels
• 1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
) His peculiar people, Israel
• Exo 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
• Deu 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
• Deu 10:14-15 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD’S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
• Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
• Isa 43:20-21 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
) Individuals to salvation
• Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
• Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
• Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
• Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
• Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
• Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
• Rom 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
• Rom 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
• Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
• Eph 1:11-12 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
• 1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
• 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
• 2Th 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
) Individuals to condemnation
• Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
• Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
• Rom 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
• Rom 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
• 1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
3. His motivation in election
) His own good pleasure
• Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
• 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
) The display of his glory
• Isa 43:6-7 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
• Rom 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
• Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
• 1Co 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
• Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
) His special love
• Deu 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
• 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
) His foreknowledge
• Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
• 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
* Which means his special love
• Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
• Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
• Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
• 1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
• 2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
• 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained [Greek, “foreknown”] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
) But not:
* Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone
• Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
• Rom 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
• Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
• Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
• 1Cor 1:27-29 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
• 1Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
• 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I
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AMG
October 30, 2011
You said: Being a Calvinist always get the bad rep! I like to call myself a Biblicist. I want to read the word of God in his context not mine. I am no scholar and I am not very smart but this I know, if my salvation is up to me, I will be in hell.
My reply: If you were a Biblicist, then you would have been more careful and not read so much from Calvinists and read more from the Bible. In addition, we do not have to be a scholar. In fact, God hid the truth from the wise and learned. You must stay closer to what the Bible actually says. Try staying closer to what I say too. You said, “if my salvation is up to me, I will be in hell.” Where did I say your salvation was up to you only?
You said: The whole discussions boil down to this, is man capable of crossing God without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit?
My reply: I am not sure what you mean by crossing God.
You said: We don’t ave to get ugly but ask the Holy Spirit to reveal God’s word to us.
My reply: God has revealed His Word to me. I know and understand God, and in this God says I can boast, and I do.
You said: I can send you many literatures on the subject but it won’t help. I am sure you can send me tons of books on what you believe. The Bible is our only source. I just like to share the following with you. Not to show you that I have it all together but I am still in need of God’s grace. God bless,
My reply: Please also read my post Disputed by Calvinists Refuted by the Truth; and, please read What a Wretched Man I am!; also, Faith and Hope.
You said: 1. God is Sovereign
My reply: God is Sovereign. God sent people to preach the good news; the good news came to me; My Master said do this and do that; I did what my Master said to do. So how does that make God not Sovereign?
You said: A) He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything
My reply: Calvinists believe that God makes everything happen, then that means Calvinists core beliefs concerning humans is that God made us without the ability to believe in Him. In addition, Calvinists beliefs make God responsible for the world’s sin, and that just is not so! The Bible says the world’s sin is unbelief in Jesus. See John 16:8, 9.
You said: Individuals to salvation • Psa 65:4 Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts!
My reply: God chooses those He approves of. We do not receive the Holy Spirit unless God who knows our hearts excepts us and gives us His Spirit. See Acts 15:8.
You said: • Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
My reply: One of Calvinists greatest blunders is on that scripture. All those God gives to Jesus will come to Jesus because they are the ones who believed in God before Jesus came, and they are the ones who have been taught by God and they recognize what Jesus says as the words of God! See John 6:44 ’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
You said: • Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
My reply: Men pick the first born for inheritances, but God’s ways are not our ways, God has many times picked not the first-born. God who knows everything knew Esau would give up his inheritance for a bowl of soup. Esau represents the Jewish people, and Jacob represents the Gentiles. The Jews gave up their inheritance when they rejected Jesus as their Messiah, and the Gentiles did not. Calvinists have confused you about the scriptures. Please read my other posts that explain more to you the scriptures Calvinists used to confuse you. All those scriptures you posted here, none of them says God gives us the Holy Spirit to make us believe. You believe in man-made doctrines. Here is something for you to think carefully about among the other things I have spoken about, and that is…if people cannot believe in God on their own after learning of Jesus, then why does God have to harden anyone?
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AMG
November 23, 2011
Calvinists believe that no one can believe in God, or seek God, unless God enables them to believe first. Calvinists say we all hate God, nor do we even want Him, and in this state of hate and not wanting, Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit regenerates a person to believe, they are then born again at that moment. Calvinists, ask yourselves these following questions; however, you will not be able to answer these questions and still stay true to your beliefs.
1) Why does God have to harden anyone? Why does God just not enable them to believe? (See John 12:40.)
2) Why does God search our hearts if we all only have evil hearts anyway? (See John 4:23; Proverbs 20:27.) If all only evil hearts have, what does it mean that God who knows their hearts showed He accepted them by giving them His Spirit? (See Acts 15:8.)
3) Jesus explains that the door will be opened to those who knock and the door is not answered because of friendship. How is it that a person all ready born again needs to knock? God answers because of the audacity of the knocker and not because of the friendship. How does Calvinism explain that? (See Luke 11:5-10.)
4) If, the Holy Spirit regenerates a person first to believe and at the same time causes the person to be born again, then when and why would anyone have to get forceful, or violent to get into the kingdom of heaven, if they already have it? (See Matthew 11:12.)
5) If Jesus is not the potential Savior of all men, then why is there mention of “especially of those who believe” in 1 Timothy 4:10?
6) Why is there a distinction made between faith and works, if they are both solely done by the Holy Spirit anyways? (See Ephesians 2:8-9.)
7) The Bible says our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From being CONVINCED, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. Why does it not say anywhere in the Bible that our faith comes from the Holy Spirit causing us to believe by regeneration?
8 Why does God credit us with righteousness for believing, if the Holy Spirit is the one who caused us to believe and we had nothing to do with it? (See Romans 4:20-24.)
9) How does anyone seek God and wait for salvation from Him, if we cannot seek God any way unless we are already born again and thus already have salvation? (See Lamentations 3:25-26.)
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ken hubbard
November 23, 2011
AMG,
There are answers to your excellent questions but there is a problem in you being able to understand the answers. As I have stated before, you have a presuppositional problem. Because you hold to Arminianism and Lapsarianism, you interpret the scriptures based on that point of view. Your starting point is with man and his condition – the particulars of creation – and in that you try to interpret ansd understand the universal laws of God, salvation, and His character. You do not start with and work out the implications of God as Creator, His omnipotence, His omniscience, and His eternality. As a result, you do not understand what Sovereignty means. Your arguments also reveal your misunderstanding of man’s will – you confuse the difference between man’s freedom and man’s ability.
Until you can come to grips with who God is and start your arguments from that presuppositonal reference, you will not understand the biblical arguments for Calvanism. When you do, you will be able to answer and understand your own questions.
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AMG
November 23, 2011
Ken,
Do you know what educated questions are? I do not believe you know what they are, or you would not say the things that you do here. An educated question is one in which the speaker already knows the answer. The Bible has many such questions throughout. I already know the answers to the questions I ask Calvinists. Calvinists really just need to try to answer these questions for their selves. In your trying to answer the questions, for yourself, you will find that you cannot logically do so, unless of course you blindly beat around the deep question itself. I understand your false religion thoroughly. I have debated many Calvinists, and they cannot answer these questions, not even in the realm of their own confusion. You do not even attempt to answer the questions you give some dead defense, which is really no defense at all. You are so in love with your false beliefs, that you are hardened from the Truth. I really have tried to help you.
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ken hubbard
November 23, 2011
1. God has hardened them, that’s why they are incapable of believing. Those that He is saving, He shows mercy by not hardening them through the work of the Spirit.
b) Some are vessels of destruction.
2. God searches our hearts with the Word of God, sharpen than any two edged sword to reveal our sin. You are in error, we are not accepted because of the condition of our heart but the condition of Jesus’ heart.
3.. Again, you are in error. The knocking passage is written for believers, not unbelievers.
4. The christian life is not easy. Sanctification is a tough road – follow Jesus and you get persecution.
5. If as you say “Jesus is potential for all sin” then you are saying He failed to save some. Pretty weak argument knowing that He is God and that you believe men can thwart His power.
6. Come on, such a silly question. faith produces works – it is part of the created order. It’s not your faith that saves you, it’s Christ’s faith – Christ in you the hope of glory.
7. In Titus for instance, God saves us by the washing and regeneration of His Holy Spirit so that we would be zealous for good works. God’s work does not nullify human responsibility to hear, listen, and obey. Once you are saved, you do not know everything. It is a learning process and again, those verses you quoted are written to Christians.
8. God credits us with righteousness because that’s His process of salvation. Jesus righteousness credited to us for the work He does in our lives through the giving of His Holy Spirit. Our believing is a direct result of that process.
9. This question goes to your theology of lapsarianism. You look at salvation chronologically. God looks at it eternally – before the foundations of the world. He has called, and is calling His elect before the appointed day of their salvation, and He makes it a guarantee – not one step at a time but from all eternity. Man’s condition lacks the ability, not the freedom to believe prior to that day – the Spirit enables the man with the ability to then believe because it was promised before he was even born.
The questions you asked are simple if you know the character of God. They are what the Bible calls milk and its time for those who are stuck on the elementary principles of salvation to grow up.
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AMG
November 24, 2011
You said: 1. God has hardened them, that’s why they are incapable of believing. Those that He is saving, He shows mercy by not hardening them through the work of the Spirit.
b) Some are vessels of destruction.
My reply: No way, you cannot claim that as an explanation. I knew you could not explain. Calvinists say we cannot believe unless regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe, so the question again, why does God harden people when He could just not enable them to believe?
You said: 2. God searches our hearts with the Word of God, sharpen than any two edged sword to reveal our sin. You are in error, we are not accepted because of the condition of our heart but the condition of Jesus’ heart.
3.. Again, you are in error. The knocking passage is written for believers, not unbelievers.
My reply: The passage is of course about believers! However, Calvinists say believers cannot believe until they are regenerated and born again—SO, the believer knocking, according to Calvinists’ reasoning, would be a friend knocking! Jesus explains that the owner of the house opened the door because of the audacity of the knocker and NOT because of FRIENDSHIP. This clearly and plainly shows that the person is seeking God, and having the Holy Spirit is not ultimately the reason the door is opened!
You said: 4. The christian life is not easy. Sanctification is a tough road – follow Jesus and you get persecution.
My reply: From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven [a]suffers violence, and violent men [b] take it by force.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 11:12 Or is forcibly entered
b. Matthew 11:12 Or seize it for themselves
This is NOT about working out our salvation, as you state, this is about getting in!
You said: 5. If as you say “Jesus is potential for all sin” then you are saying He failed to save some. Pretty weak argument knowing that He is God and that you believe men can thwart His power.
My reply: You did not answer the question! You merely repeated what Calvinists taught you to say. In addition, I did not say what you quote me as saying. Please answer the question.
You said: 6. Come on, such a silly question. faith produces works – it is part of the created order. It’s not your faith that saves you, it’s Christ’s faith – Christ in you the hope of glory.
My reply: Faith produces work; however, Calvinists say faith is a work! You still did not answer the question; you merely stated what Calvinists programmed you to say. If it is Christ’s faith, and if you are saved by Christ’s faith…why would Apostle Paul say, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Grace is the gift spoken of here, not faith. If faith were the gift, then why would Paul make a distinction between faith and works if the person does NOT do faith anyway? If works are not done by the person either, then how can there be boasting? If the person does not do faith, then why even make the distinction between faith and works?
You said: 7. In Titus for instance, God saves us by the washing and regeneration of His Holy Spirit so that we would be zealous for good works. God’s work does not nullify human responsibility to hear, listen, and obey. Once you are saved, you do not know everything. It is a learning process and again, those verses you quoted are written to Christians.
My reply: We do not have washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit unless we believe. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until after we obey, see Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. From Acts 2:38, we see that we are to repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. And we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You said: 8. God credits us with righteousness because that’s His process of salvation. Jesus righteousness credited to us for the work He does in our lives through the giving of His Holy Spirit. Our believing is a direct result of that process.
My reply: Romans 4:20-24 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
It is clear from the passage about Abraham, as is written for us too, that we are responsible for having faith and keeping faith. By OUR believing we have access to grace, and by OUR believing we have righteousness through Jesus. Nowhere does it say what you would like me to believe, that we are first made to believe.
You said: 9. This question goes to your theology of lapsarianism. You look at salvation chronologically. God looks at it eternally – before the foundations of the world. He has called, and is calling His elect before the appointed day of their salvation, and He makes it a guarantee – not one step at a time but from all eternity. Man’s condition lacks the ability, not the freedom to believe prior to that day – the Spirit enables the man with the ability to then believe because it was promised before he was even born.
The questions you asked are simple if you know the character of God. They are what the Bible calls milk and its time for those who are stuck on the elementary principles of salvation to grow up.
My reply: You continually only repeat what Calvinists have taught you. Answer the question! How does anyone seek God and wait for salvation from Him, if we cannot seek God any way unless we are already born again and thus already have salvation? (See Lamentations 3:25-26.) You do not know what I believe because you do not know what Jesus says. If you knew what I believed, then you would know that I believe God made the plan for salvation before the creation of the world, and that God knows who will obey Him, from before the creation of the world, and thus whom He will choose. That does not take away from our free will. Looks like you assume what I believe and get it wrong. Did you really think I did not believe God had known all things before the creation of the world? Glad you came back to try to answer the questions. I hope you pray hard and study hard and ask God for His Truth…and believe it when you see it.
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ken hubbard
November 24, 2011
To answer your last reply: yes I know exactly what you believe because I use to believe the very exact thing and gave the very exact answers. Again, you fall back into your lapsarianism theology and quote exactly Arminian doctrine. This was condemn in the church well of 1600 years ago and throughout the age of the church.
Also, you fail to work out the implications of what you believe.
If you believe that God is the creator, and man the creature, how does that work itself out in the acts of salvation? Did God create man’s will? Is God sovereign over man’s will? And by the way, your understanding of sovereign does not mean that He just gives orders for you to obey. He means He rules over you, over your will, and over all your circumstances. There is nothing that is not in His control. If there is, then He is not a sovereign God and your salvation is founded upon fate, chance, and worst still, your sinful understanding. Then you have something to boast because you are just keeping the law of believing to be saved as a reward and not according to grace. Again, that is an implication of what you believe regardless of how you try to argue around it.
If you believe God is omnipotent, how does man get his strength to believe? You said man is not “so” dead that he cannot believe. So your implication is that man in his own strength, according to his own mind that he himself created, and according to his own knowledge that he discovered by himself is the basis for his belief and resurrection. What is the implication that man is not “so” dead? You need to see Jesus as all your strength, as Jesus’ belief as your belief, as Jesus’ work as your work, because that’s how God see it. You are in Christ, you do not stand alone in your salvation. And most importantly, you had no part in putting yourself into Christ or in your resurrection (dead men don’t get up), it is the act of God alone – not of blood, not according to the flesh, and not according to the will of man, but of God alone.
If you believe God knew all things before the creation, why do you apply the human quality of time to an eternal God without working out those implications? Why does He know all things? If your answer is that He saw the future, the implication is that God is restricted by time. Instead, He knows because He predestined at the same instance – from all eternity and not at any moment in time. This is your lapsarian fallacy of which I speak.
Finally, and this is the third time. Your presuppositions are faulty and it is why you have fallen into Arminianism and Lapsarianism and have difficulty understanding the age old doctrines of salvation. Most people call it Calvanism but the truth is Calvin was only reiterating in a more systematic theology what the church had believed for centuries. Because you are not well read, according to your own words, you are limited by your own mind about the history of the church. You will do well to read the Canons of the Council of Orange of 529 AD. You will see that your arguments are historical and not something you AMG have come up with on your own.
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AMG
November 24, 2011
You said: To answer your last reply: yes I know exactly what you believe because I use to believe the very exact thing and gave the very exact answers. Again, you fall back into your lapsarianism theology and quote exactly Arminian doctrine. This was condemn in the church well of 1600 years ago and throughout the age of the church.
My reply: If you did believe as I do, then you exchanged the truth for a lie. I do not believe you that you gave the “very exact answers.” You cannot even answer the questions now. If Arminius believed in some truths, then it is God’s truth, not Ariminius’ words. I only quote the written word of God. Do you really think that condemnation from a false religion means anything to me? According to the Catholics, you are condemned also. LOL
You said: Also, you fail to work out the implications of what you believe.
My reply: You sure got that backwards! You did not, could not, answer any of the questions I gave you.
You said: If you believe that God is the creator, and man the creature, how does that work itself out in the acts of salvation?
My reply: God created man in His imagine. God created us with the ability to choose. God knew before He created us that we would choose wrong. God made for us the plan of salvation before the creation of the world that His Son will give salvation to all who believe. The Word of God says that there are those who want to do right, but that they cannot stop sinning! Why do you ignore and do not care that that IS GOD”S WORD? ANSWER ME THAT QUESTION, PLEASE!
You said: Did God create man’s will? Is God sovereign over man’s will?
My reply: God is Sovereign, God created us with free will. God created us with all the limits and boundaries that we have in our free will. God can stop someone from committing sins against Him, but that does not mean that that person’s intentions are changed. We are responsible for our own sins and our own intentions! God is not responsible for our sins, as Calvinists believe! Jesus is the author of our lives! Not of our evil! What is wrong with you!
You said: And by the way, your understanding of sovereign does not mean that He just gives orders for you to obey. He means He rules over you, over your will, and over all your circumstances.
My reply: Again, God is not responsible for our sins!
You said: There is nothing that is not in His control.
My reply: There is nothing not in His control, and God allows us to sin. The lake of fire is going to have people in it who deserve to be in it.
You said: If there is, then He is not a sovereign God and your salvation is founded upon fate, chance, and worst still, your sinful understanding.
My reply: There are people who have lived since Jesus, yet did not hear the truth. Do you think that God will not judge them? Of course, God will judge even them! Do you think that they will just be sentence to the lake of fire without judgment because they never heard of Jesus?
You said: Then you have something to boast because you are just keeping the law of believing to be saved as a reward and not according to grace. Again, that is an implication of what you believe regardless of how you try to argue around it.
My reply: No way is that an implication of what I believe! With your beliefs—there is boasting. With your beliefs, you get to boast that God saved you for no known reason, yet sentenced to eternal fire others for no known reason. How is that not something sinister? How is that acceptable to you that you do not know God’s reason? The Bible tells us why God saves some and not others! I know why, yet you Calvinists say you do not know why God saves some and not others. You Calvinists say we do not know why! You need to think more about the implications of your beliefs. With your beliefs, there is no need to teach us about not boasting in works for salvation, BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOUR FALSE BELIEFS, WE ARE NOT THE ONES WHO CAN EVEN WORK ANYWAYS! DOES THAT NOT PROVE TO YOU THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE? CALVINISTS TEACH THAT WE CAN DO NOTHING WITHOUT FIRST BEING SAVED AND BORN AGAIN, SO THEN HOW CAN A PERSON DO WORKS AND NOT BE SAVED, YET THAT IS WHAT APOSTLE PAUL TEACHES US!
It does not even say in the Bible what you say! Why is it that Paul does not say God saved us by causing us to believe? Why is it that Paul does not say we cannot even do works until after we are born again? Answer, please! I demand an answer from you. Give the answer or stop preaching your evil lies!
You said: If you believe God is omnipotent, how does man get his strength to believe? You said man is not “so” dead that he cannot believe.
My reply: You keep saying I said we are not so dead. Why do you keep repeating your leaders’ words to me without thinking? We are dead in our sins, that does NOT mean we cannot think. We are dead in our sins, but NOWHERE in God’s Word does He say we are so dead we cannot believe in Him after learning of Jesus. In fact, the Word of God SAYS we have faith after learning of Him! Answer me, please, why do you ignore the Word of God?
You said: So your implication is that man in his own strength, according to his own mind that he himself created, and according to his own knowledge that he discovered by himself is the basis for his belief and resurrection.
My reply: I do not understand that convoluted question.
You said: What is the implication that man is not “so” dead? You need to see Jesus as all your strength, as Jesus’ belief as your belief, as Jesus’ work as your work, because that’s how God see it.
My reply: You go against God’s Word. God’s Word SAYS we have faith through others teaching us, by being convinced, and persuaded. What do you not understand about that? THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD.
You said: You are in Christ, you do not stand alone in your salvation. And most importantly, you had no part in putting yourself into Christ or in your resurrection (dead men don’t get up), it is the act of God alone – not of blood, not according to the flesh, and not according to the will of man, but of God alone.
My reply: Dead men do not think and eat either, now do they. You believe in man’s assumptions, you add to God’s word, and thus it makes you a liar who goes against the Word of God.
You said: If you believe God knew all things before the creation, why do you apply the human quality of time to an eternal God without working out those implications? Why does He know all things? If your answer is that He saw the future, the implication is that God is restricted by time. Instead, He knows because He predestined at the same instance – from all eternity and not at any moment in time. This is your lapsarian fallacy of which I speak.
My reply: God does not force us to love Him. God did not make robots. God made us in His image! God is not responsible for our sins! Your beliefs are that God made us sin and every evil thing we did He made us do it, and then will give us salvation to where we resist the evil He wants us to do! Then, in the end will judge all for the evil He made us do, and then make the world new and pretend nothing ever happened! Think!
You said: Finally, and this is the third time. Your presuppositions are faulty and it is why you have fallen into Arminianism and Lapsarianism and have difficulty understanding the age old doctrines of salvation.
My reply: The Word of God SAYS you are worldly and not spiritual when you say you follow mere men. You do not even know what lapsarianism is, since you word that accusation against me the way that you do.
You said: Most people call it Calvanism but the truth is Calvin was only reiterating in a more systematic theology what the church had believed for centuries. Because you are not well read, according to your own words, you are limited by your own mind about the history of the church. You will do well to read the Canons of the Council of Orange of 529 AD. You will see that your arguments are historical and not something you AMG have come up with on your own.
My reply: I have the Word of God. The Holy Spirit has taught me. I do not want anything to do with the rubbish you learned, only to refute and correct, so that others may possibly come to the Truth.
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AMG
November 26, 2011
Ken,
Would you consider putting the link to you blog site on your Gravatar? If you do, then anyone can go straight to your site when clicking on your picture or name.
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ken hubbard
November 26, 2011
You said you knew what Calvinism is but you write as one who is very ignorant of Calvin’s teachings. Did you study Calvin to get to your conclusions, or are they just your own assumptions and conclusions (since you don’t read anything besides the Bible) that you have come up with during the coarse of your discussions?
2nd, your exegesis on Ephesians 2:7-9 is terrible. The greek word “KAI” makes the direct and absolute connection between faith and the word gift, which is then emphasized in verse 9. Grace is the operation of God towards man and the reason for the gift – it is presupposed in order for the unmerited gift to be given to someone who is unworthy. The emphasis for the whole passage is exactly saying what you are saying it is not. Your faith is not of your own, it is a gift of God, so that you cannot boast. We can certainly boast in Jesus because He bestowed upon us His grace so that we could be saved. I cannot boast in my faith which you do with such large type.
3rd, You said: “My reply: You go against God’s Word. God’s Word SAYS we have faith through others teaching us, by being convinced, and persuaded. What do you not understand about that? THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD.” Then you say that YOU only need the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. Well, you are right, my teachers are Calvinistic and I do listen to them. Paul, John, Luther, Hus, Wycliffe, Warfield, Calvin, and even my elders of today in fulfillment of the Scriptures that say that Apostles, teachers, and evangelist are our elders to equip us for the ministry. Your own words have condemned your theology that you can stand on your own two feet, on your own mind. By the way, that was the same sin as Adam and Eve in the garden.
4th, your understanding of Lapsarianism: This refers to man’s sin. In your case, I use it to refer to your speculative theology, human ideas, about God, developed into abstractions and then imposed on God and His Word (as you did with Ephesians). You look at salvation as a process, in chronological order instead of an eternal act of God. You see history as past to present to future. What God, in His eternal degrees, is telling us is to see history as future to present to past. God decreed from all eternity for you to be saved. You think you were saved when you believed one day in time. God sees you in glory with Him, and then everything is established to that end. There is no eternal distinction from when Adam and Eve had their first child, till you were born, till you professed Christ, till you lived your life, till you were received into heaven. Instead, the eternal decrees of God establishes all the events (history) that make it so. Look at your life, can you not see the hand of God working, even before you were born, to get you to the point of believing? Was there anything you could have done to stop the omnipotent One from fulfilling what He had decreed before the foundation of the world? This is what has established your belief/faith and your walk with God – your good deeds and the reason why you should obey here in time and throughout eternity.
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AMG
November 26, 2011
You said: You said you knew what Calvinism is but you write as one who is very ignorant of Calvin’s teachings.
My reply: I understand Calvinism completely. It is not impossible to understand, by the way. You think that all who do not agree must not really understand. That is the mentality of all in false religions…they think those who do not agree with them just do not understand the teachings.
You said: Did you study Calvin to get to your conclusions, or are they just your own assumptions and conclusions (since you don’t read anything besides the Bible) that you have come up with during the coarse of your discussions?
My reply: I never said I do not read anything besides the Bible.
You said: 2nd, your exegesis on Ephesians 2:7-9 is terrible. The greek word “KAI” makes the direct and absolute connection between faith and the word gift, which is then emphasized in verse 9.
My reply: You said my exegesis is terrible. I wonder what kind of schooling and studying in exegesis and Greek you think those saved in the Bible times went through after Jesus saved them and opened the eyes of their hearts. You are brainwashed with falseness. Paul makes the distinction from FAITH and WORKS. It is clear to those who love the truth, but to those who study book after book and listen to sermon after sermon of falseness bury themselves far from the truth. We have access to grace through faith that is what the Bible says.
You said: Grace is the operation of God towards man and the reason for the gift – it is presupposed in order for the unmerited gift to be given to someone who is unworthy.
My reply: Grace is salvation through Jesus Christ and that is the gift! What kind of twisted mess are you trying to sell me? God gives grace to those who believe not, God gives belief so He can give grace. That is not in the Bible.
You said: The emphasis for the whole passage is exactly saying what you are saying it is not. Your faith is not of your own, it is a gift of God, so that you cannot boast.
My reply: This is what the Bible says, and it is different from what you said to me… Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.
The word plainly says we have been saved by grace through faith. Faith could not be works since Paul says, “not by works..” Faith is not a work, it is like drinking water. We are saved not by works, so that no one can boast. Paul makes the a distinction from faith and works. You think Paul is making a distinction between grace and faith and works, and not how we have access to grace. However, the scriptures plainly tells us we have access to grace by faith, see Romans 5:1-2. According to Calvinists, only saved people can have faith, so explain how we have access to grace by faith. I demand you to explain it.
Paul makes a distinction between faith and works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Paul again makes the distinction in Romans. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law, Romans 3:28.
You said: We can certainly boast in Jesus because He bestowed upon us His grace so that we could be saved. I cannot boast in my faith which you do with such large type.
My reply: I would not know what faith was if not for the Lord! Why is there a distinction made at all if faith and works are both only possible after being saved? You cannot boast in the Lord at all with your beliefs. How does it make you feel that for no reason God saved you from life of eternal suffering, yet for no known reason God choose others to suffer eternally in the lake of fire? You could never even boast in the Lord, not with your beliefs.
You said: 3rd, You said: “My reply: You go against God’s Word. God’s Word SAYS we have faith through others teaching us, by being convinced, and persuaded. What do you not understand about that? THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD.” Then you say that YOU only need the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. Well, you are right, my teachers are Calvinistic and I do listen to them. Paul, John, Luther, Hus, Wycliffe, Warfield, Calvin, and even my elders of today in fulfillment of the Scriptures that say that Apostles, teachers, and evangelist are our elders to equip us for the ministry. Your own words have condemned your theology that you can stand on your own two feet, on your own mind. By the way, that was the same sin as Adam and Eve in the garden.
My reply: I obey God’s Word, yet you compare me to Adam and Eve who did not obey God. You are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of. You disobey God’s Word when you follow doctrine from men.
You said: 4th, your understanding of Lapsarianism: This refers to man’s sin. In your case, I use it to refer to your speculative theology, human ideas, about God, developed into abstractions and then imposed on God and His Word (as you did with Ephesians). You look at salvation as a process, in chronological order instead of an eternal act of God.
My reply: You do not admit error. You accuse me of lapsarianism, and that is proof you do not know what it means.
You said: You see history as past to present to future. What God, in His eternal degrees, is telling us is to see history as future to present to past. God decreed from all eternity for you to be saved. You think you were saved when you believed one day in time.
My reply: LOL…what are you talking about? Do you think God made you perfect in the Lord before Jesus died on the cross? Please answer that question. In your beliefs, Jesus did not even have to die for you.
You said: God sees you in glory with Him, and then everything is established to that end. There is no eternal distinction from when Adam and Eve had their first child, till you were born, till you professed Christ, till you lived your life, till you were received into heaven. Instead, the eternal decrees of God establishes all the events (history) that make it so. Look at your life, can you not see the hand of God working, even before you were born, to get you to the point of believing? Was there anything you could have done to stop the omnipotent One from fulfilling what He had decreed before the foundation of the world? This is what has established your belief/faith and your walk with God – your good deeds and the reason why you should obey here in time and throughout eternity.
My reply: If what you say is true, then why is it that the Bible says we are not known by God until we believe?
Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God–or rather are known by God–how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
1 Corinthians 8:3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
You even believe God caused us to sin all the sins we commit! I have an important question to ask you, please tell me what you believe about the righteous people from the Old Testament days who died before Jesus came to earth and died.
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ken hubbard
November 27, 2011
The main point I have tried to explain to you is that you cannot understand what the church has believed about God and salvation over the last 2ooo years because of your presuppositions. Those presuppositions, for instance about lapsarian Theology, predestination, and sovereignty, prevents you from understanding. Your questions exemplify this truth. Also, you have grown up in a culture that is steeped in humanism believing that you can reason in your mind to understand all there is about God. For instance, how can God be Holy and create a world that has sin? Or, how can God save someone before that person believes? Or the Trinity, or eternity, or why God created everything in the first place knowing that some are going to hell. This whole discussion is about a secondary cause – how is one saved. If, however, your understanding of the primary cause is flawed, you will misunderstand any secondary cause.
Therefore, Any answer to your questions cannot be understood in the context in which you have placed yourself. In that sense, you are an agnostic. You believe that there is no way that God can work that way. So any evidence that could convince you is discarded or you look for a logical conclusion around it. It is then that you will say that you are just following the Bible as a means of justification and self-vindication. We all do it not just you. To prevent this kind of error you have to go outside of yourself. You must read what other men of God, who studied the scriptures, have written; those who are the fathers/elders of the church, what they have said on the subject and take that into consideration.
Salvation is the same today, yesterday, and forever because Jesus, our great God and Saviour, is Lord over all.
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AMG
November 27, 2011
You said: The main point I have tried to explain to you is that you cannot understand what the church has believed about God and salvation over the last 2ooo years because of your presuppositions.
My reply: I understand completely what Calvinists say. There is nowhere in the Bible that says what your beliefs say.
You said: Your questions exemplify this truth.
My reply: Ken, answer my questions about God’s word. You have not answered any of them.
You said: Also, you have grown up in a culture that is steeped in humanism believing that you can reason in your mind to understand all there is about God. For instance, how can God be Holy and create a world that has sin?
My reply: I have never asked that question. I know why God created a world that has sin! Calvinists do not know. Calvinists go against the deep things of God. I notice that you say I say things that you have not ever heard me say, why is that you only repeat what your leaders have taught you to say?
You said: Or, how can God save someone before that person believes?
My reply: You will have to live with the fact that you accept man’s teachings over God’s Word. How are you going to live with that? Are you just going to bury your head deeper in the lies you are taught? The word of God says God knows us when we love Him!
You said: Or the Trinity, or eternity, or why God created everything in the first place knowing that some are going to hell. This whole discussion is about a secondary cause – how is one saved. If, however, your understanding of the primary cause is flawed, you will misunderstand any secondary cause.
My reply: You are guilty of the very things you accuse me of.
You said: Therefore, Any answer to your questions cannot be understood in the context in which you have placed yourself.
My reply: All you have to do is answer the questions and you cannot! All you have to do is explain your answer using other scriptures. All you have to do is give answers that do not contradict any other scripture in the Bible. All you have to do is rightly divide the word of God. However, you do not, nor can you.
You said: In that sense, you are an agnostic. You believe that there is no way that God can work that way. So any evidence that could convince you is discarded or you look for a logical conclusion around it.
My reply: I will give you proof that you do nothing but unjust slandering. You prove it in this whole reply from you, that nowhere in this reply do you explain the biblical questions I asked you.
You said: It is then that you will say that you are just following the Bible as a means of justification and self-vindication. We all do it not just you. To prevent this kind of error you have to go outside of yourself.
My reply: What you say does not even make sense.
You said: You must read what other men of God, who studied the scriptures, have written; those who are the fathers/elders of the church, what they have said on the subject and take that into consideration.
My reply: I know what false teachers say. Read my post False Religions and False Doctrines. In that post you can read about many different beliefs that I expose. Read also my post Calvinism, and Disputed by Calvinists Refuted by the Truth. You can also read my post Soul Sleep Doctrine of Death. In that post you can read what soul sleep believers of the Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, and Christadelphians teach. You can also read my two posts on Catholics. I have been in false religions and have studied many false religions. Your claims against me are ridiculous.
You said: Salvation is the same today, yesterday, and forever because Jesus, our great God and Saviour, is Lord over all.
My reply: The Bible does not mention Augustine and Calvin. More importantly, Apostle Paul tells us in the Bible during his time, that there ARE false teachers. You are sadly worldlier than you see, for if you think that the writings from long ago is assurance of truth. I have tried with you. With your false beliefs, you say God made us sin! God tells us believe. With your false beliefs you say, “We cannot believe!” If that is not evil, than what is?
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ken hubbard
November 27, 2011
I recommend that you start with reading the Westminster Confession of Faith so you can study to get the whole picture of Christian theology. The WCF is a culmination of what the church has come to believe as true about what the Word of God says. I would also recommend Calvin’s Institutes and R.J.Rushdoony’s Sovereignty to help with those presuppositions. Your conclusions of Calvinism and what the historical church has said about salvation are wrong because you again have interpreted them by your humanistic presuppositions.
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AMG
November 27, 2011
I will tell you again, I know about your beliefs. Why would you even assume for a second that I have not read the Westminster Confession? We are supposed to be talking about scriptures. YOU are the one who must not know of your own beliefs. I hope that if you find while trying to defend your beliefs you find that they go against God’s Word, you repent, leave that system, move on, and grow in the Lord. You cannot think for a second that a defense to your false belief is to tell others where to go study and that they just do not understand. That is no defense. In fact, it shows much about you.
You can never escape the fact that your religion falsely teaches that God is responsible for the evil sins of everyone who has ever lived. You can never escape the fact that your religion goes against the Word of God who says “Believe,” and your religion says, “No, we cannot.” Stay in your religion and try to live with that!
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ken hubbard
November 27, 2011
You still do not understand the argument and apparently won’t in the near future. Also, I assume you haven’t read the WCF because you haven’t. Why do you reply as though you had?
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AMG
November 28, 2011
Ken, I have been debating Calvinists for some years. I have read the WCF. Now stop making this discussion about me personally. I have found that when people cannot defend their beliefs they then start attacking their opponent in a personal way. Discuss God’s word, and not discuss over and over what you think I have read from Calvinists.
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ken hubbard
November 28, 2011
If you have read the WCF, how can you say that “God made us do all the sins that we do?” That is the opposite of what the WCF and Calvanist believe. As I said, you do not understand.
However, It is about you – that your presuppositions are flawed, and that’s why you have reached the wrong conclusions. Until you correct your presuppositions you will continue down the Pelagian path. You said yourself that we are evil and wicked, can anything good come from a rotten tree? You say yes, Jesus said no (Mathew 7:17-18). When you were born, did you have a choice of parents, a choice to be born or not, a choice to maintain your own life? (John 3) Same with the second birth – you are born of the Spirit not of the flesh, Not of the will of man, but the will of God (John 1). It’s not your choice. But once born, you have the freedom and the ability, provided by the Holy Spirit, to repent and believe.
You have been unable to see these truths because your presupposition, your starting point of how you think, is that man is in some way “good” enough to believe and receive apart from the sovereignty of God. That’s why it is about you. If you have the wrong classes on, we will not be able to read and understand. That’s why you interpret the Titus, Roman, and Ephesian passages as you do..
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AMG
November 28, 2011
You said: If you have read the WCF, how can you say that “God made us do all the sins that we do?” That is the opposite of what the WCF and Calvanist believe. As I said, you do not understand.
My reply: You do not see the error of your false beliefs. Calvinists say that God predestined everything, even sin. If God predestined everything, then God predestined our sins. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
You said: However, It is about you – that your presuppositions are flawed, and that’s why you have reached the wrong conclusions. Until you correct your presuppositions you will continue down the Pelagian path.
My reply: Do you not see your ridiculous defense? You are telling me that unless I become a Calvinist and believe like you, that I cannot be right. Saying to me that I am wrong is no defense. Stop saying that to me, and speak of the scriptures.
You said: You said yourself that we are evil and wicked, can anything good come from a rotten tree?
My reply: We are not all so evil and wicked that we cannot hear the truth and believe. Surely, some are so wicked, but obviously not all. The Bible says we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity. We came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of our minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24. THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. The Bible SAYS there are those who GLADLY do right and REMEMBER GOD”S WAYS, but that we continued to sin against them. That is God’s word! See Isaiah 64:5-6. Why will you not believe God’s word?
You said:You say yes, Jesus said no (Mathew 7:17-18).
My reply: Jesus told the Jews what he said to them. Now, you believe that proves Calvinism how? Why would Jesus expect them to be able to believe if he knew God made us without the ability to believe? Remember, Calvinists say God predestined everything; therefore, God made us without the ability to believe. Does not your religion teach that God predestined everything? Of course, your religion teaches that! Again, why does Jesus expect them to believe? When the disciples asked Jesus why they couldn’t drive it out (the demon), Jesus replied, “Because you have so little faith.” How is it that they had so little faith? Yet you use Matthew 7:17-18 to try to prove that they had NO faith.
You said: When you were born, did you have a choice of parents, a choice to be born or not, a choice to maintain your own life? (John 3) Same with the second birth – you are born of the Spirit not of the flesh, Not of the will of man, but the will of God (John 1). It’s not your choice. But once born, you have the freedom and the ability, provided by the Holy Spirit, to repent and believe.
My reply: What does it matter if I could choose my parents, or to be born or not? What does that have to do with hearing and learning of the truth? What does that have to do with my being DRAWN to God for the hope given through Jesus? See Hebrews 7:18-19. The Bible clearly and plainly tells us to believe and repent. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you cannot believe till God saves you then you can believe after you are saved!
You said: You have been unable to see these truths because your presupposition, your starting point of how you think, is that man is in some way “good” enough to believe and receive apart from the sovereignty of God.
My reply: God is good! God is not the author of my evil sins. We cannot save ourselves, THAT IS WHY GOD SENT US A SAVIOR.
You said: That’s why it is about you. If you have the wrong classes on, we will not be able to read and understand. That’s why you interpret the Titus, Roman, and Ephesian passages as you do..
My reply: No, that is why YOU cannot understand. You cannot understand because you fell in love with the words from the likes of Calvinists.
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ken hubbard
November 28, 2011
Are you saying that man is god, and can predestined his own future by believing in his own power to believe? If God does not predestine it, then who does? Is your answer, fate – chance – or man’s will? If you answer with either one, God is no longer God, for you are saying that there is something in the created order that He does not have control over – another power does. There goes God’s omnipotence and sovereignty. God is not the author of sin nor does He make anyone sin. You are greatly mistaken on this point about Calvinism. For man, to try and figure out how sin can be in a world created by a Holy God is incomprehensible. You can never come up with an adequate answer for what you believe is the source of sin. It is a dead end.
Regarding Cornelius, your lapsarian theology again prevails. That’s why you can’t see it. See my earlier post where you said: “LOL…what are you talking about?” Try to figure it out yourself because you won’t believe my report.
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AMG
November 28, 2011
How do you stay in a blasphemous religion? How do you stay in a religion that says God made us do all the sins that we do? God says we are wicked and evil. Calvinists say God caused us to do wicked and evil. I hope you are never comfortable again in your false religion. I hope that you keep studying God’s written word. Keep praying and searching. Resign yourself not to believe anything anyone teaches you, unless the Holy Spirit leads you to the Truth. I hope that you will love God’s Word, and not choose man’s word. Search the Bible. Do not just read from Calvinists. Desire God’s Truth more than anything else there is to desire.
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AMG
November 28, 2011
Ken,
I will prove to you for the last time that Calvinism is a false religion. If you do not still believe what I say as the word of God after this, then there is nothing else to say to you, since you will have purposely rejected the truth. Let us take this slow.
1. Calvinists say that God saves us first, that we are first born again, AND THEN God causes us to believe, is this not correct?
2. Calvinists say that we CANNOT believe after learning of God, is this not correct in what you believe?
3. Do you know Cornelius in the Bible?
4. Cornelius was not a Jew, but a Centurian, an excluded Gentile, excluded from citizenship in Israel and as a Gentile, he is a foreigner to the covenants of the promise, is this not correct according to the word of God?
5. NOW, according to Calvinist beliefs, tell me how Cornelius and his whole family could be “devout.”
6. How could he and his whole family be “God-fearing,” since God did NOT YET SAVE THEM?
7. God did NOT yet save Cornelius and his household. God did NOT save them first then cause them to believe. For an angel told Cornelius, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message though which you and all your household will be saved.’
Cornelius believed in God, feared God, and was devout, see Acts 10:1-2. Though he was a Gentile, see Acts 11:1. Gentiles were excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, see Colossians 1:4-6. Cornelius was not yet saved until he heard the message, see Acts 11:14.
Now give up your false beliefs! Do not lean to the left or to the right of God’s words. Do not go beyond what is written. Do not add to God’s word! Deuteronomy 4:2; 5:32, Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19.
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AMG
November 29, 2011
You said: Are you saying that man is god, and can predestined his own future by believing in his own power to believe?
My reply: You twist God’s words, so no wonder you twist mine.
You said: If God does not predestine it, then who does?
My reply: So are you admitting that your false religion believes God predestines sin? According to your beliefs, God predestines EVERYTHING. If God does not predestine everything, even sin, then according to your beliefs, He is no longer in control. I can hardly believe that you do not even know that about your own religion’s teachings.
You said: Is your answer, fate – chance – or man’s will? If you answer with either one, God is no longer God, for you are saying that there is something in the created order that He does not have control over – another power does.
My reply: How do you get that God has no control if He gave us the ability to believe in Him or not? Seriously, answer that. To give you a human example, if you have a two-year-old child, are you in control of that child, even though it has its own thoughts.
You said: There goes God’s omnipotence and sovereignty. God is not the author of sin nor does He make anyone sin. You are greatly mistaken on this point about Calvinism.
My reply: You do not even know what your own religion teaches.
You said: For man, to try and figure out how sin can be in a world created by a Holy God is incomprehensible. You can never come up with an adequate answer for what you believe is the source of sin. It is a dead end.
My reply: Calvinists say they do not know why God saves some and not others. For your false religion, it will always be incomprehensible, because you detoured from the truth, because you exchanged the truth for a lie, because you love man’s word and not God’s.
You said: Regarding Cornelius, your lapsarian theology again prevails. That’s why you can’t see it. See my earlier post where you said: “LOL…what are you talking about?” Try to figure it out yourself because you won’t believe my report.
My reply: You blatantly ignore God’s word. You see from the scriptures that God had not yet saved Cornelius. You see from the scriptures that before God saved Cornelius, he feared God and was devout. Shame on you for believing man’s lies taught by demons.
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ken hubbard
November 29, 2011
My reply: How do you get that God has no control if He gave us the ability to believe in Him or not? Seriously, answer that. To give you a human example, if you have a two-year-old child, are you in control of that child, even though it has its own thoughts.
Can you not see the apparent contradiction in your premise?
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AMG
November 29, 2011
You just cannot answer any question in defense of your false religion. Yet, I give careful attention to all your questions. As for your last question here…no, there is no contradiction in my example. Is that all you have to say? There is no reason for us to discuss anymore together, because I love talking about God’s Word, and you love talking about Calvin’s words.
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ken hubbard
November 29, 2011
First, you love to talk about what you think about the Word of God, not the Word of God.
2nd, you account human qualities to God and assume all humans have the mental capacity to believe. Why did you start with a 2 year old, when we were talking about birth. Your 2 year old example was exemplifying my point that you can’t think until after you are born – you can’t really think and understand God unless you are born again. You should have thought of this because it was so apparent.
3rd, Under your premise, all 57 million babies who died in abortion, because they never got to a point to believed, are doomed to hell. Unless you assume Calvinism and allow God’s grace alone to save them. Same goes with those who are mentally retarded.
4th, and which you still do not understand, Calvin’s Words are talking about God’s Word. He is an elder in the church preaching the Word of God that the church over the last two thousand years has believed to be true. Now you come along and are God’s gift to the world to straighten all of us out. Greater commentary on you then it is on the church.
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AMG
November 29, 2011
You said: First, you love to talk about what you think about the Word of God, not the Word of God. 2nd, you account human qualities to God and assume all humans have the mental capacity to believe. Why did you start with a 2 year old, when we were talking about birth. Your 2 year old example was exemplifying my point that you can’t think until after you are born – you can’t really think and understand God unless you are born again. You should have thought of this because it was so apparent.
My reply: Ken, how many times I must tell you, we are TAUGHT. We are CONVINCED. We are PERSUADED. THAT is the word of God.
You said: 3rd, Under your premise, all 57 million babies who died in abortion, because they never got to a point to believed, are doomed to hell. Unless you assume Calvinism and allow God’s grace alone to save them. Same goes with those who are mentally retarded.
My reply: You continually make up things that I say, and then have a conversation about it. God knows who WILL believe, and God knows who WOULD believe!
You said: 4th, and which you still do not understand, Calvin’s Words are talking about God’s Word
My reply: Calvin is not talking about God’s word. The Bible does not say what Calvin teaches. Show me one scripture that says what Calvin teaches; show me one scripture that says plainly, “We cannot believe until God saves us first.” Or, “We cannot believe until God causes us to be born again.”
You said: He is an elder in the church preaching the Word of God that the church over the last two thousand years has believed to be true.
My reply: I already told you that there were false teachers, even while Apostle Paul walked the earth.
You said: Now you come along and are God’s gift to the world to straighten all of us out. Greater commentary on you then it is on the church.
My reply: So would you rather I just be quiet about what God has shown me? Would you rather I just keep it to myself? No way.
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ken hubbard
November 29, 2011
No, I would rather that you keep doing what you are doing. Searching the scriptures and love God with all your might, heart and soul. I would like you to remember that not everything that you think God has shown you is really what God has shown you. Yes, you have the Holy Spirit, you also are finite and your mind is corrupted by a sin nature that still exist until you die. There is a variety of influences, that’s why you also read what other Christians think about the Scriptures to assist you against any self-deception and false doctrines.
Therefore, I expect two Christians to come up with different minor viewpoints and still be Christians. I don’t believe because you have a different view of man’s condition regarding salvation that you are not one who is saved – your salvation is not based on your knowledge. We all go through a learning curve. You probably do not hold to some of the same doctrine that you had when you were first born again. It is a learning process. God doesn’t give us all the info that we need at once and neither does He give us all the info that there is. Some of it has to be learned on our own and from others. And some of it has to be understood as incomprehensible. If you understand this, you do well.
Lastly, about Calvinism, the discussion we have had about salvation is a side issue. Calvin held that God is One and in three Persons, that God is the creator of everything, that the Word of God is inerrant and infallible, that Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully Man, that salvation was by Grace through faith alone, that there is a judgement day – for man is responsible for his sins, eternal life and eternal judgment, and that salvation is obtained through the blood, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
You have called him a false teacher many times because he does not agree with your interpretation of man’s condition regarding salvation. Is there anyone that you know that has all the doctrines correct? Is everyone then a false teacher in your book except yourself? You have used the term incorrectly. Paul was using it for those who said observance of the law is what saves and those who were anti-christ; not believing that Jesus had come in the flesh and denying His deity.
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AMG
November 29, 2011
You said: No, I would rather that you keep doing what you are doing. Searching the scriptures and love God with all your might, heart and soul. I would like you to remember that not everything that you think God has shown you is really what God has shown you. Yes, you have the Holy Spirit, you also are finite and your mind is corrupted by a sin nature that still exist until you die. There is a variety of influences, that’s why you also read what other Christians think about the Scriptures to assist you against any self-deception and false doctrines.
My reply: Ken, I am no baby Christian. As for you saying “your mind is corrupted by a sin nature,” I have the mind of Christ.
You said: Therefore, I expect two Christians to come up with different minor viewpoints and still be Christians. I don’t believe because you have a different view of man’s condition regarding salvation that you are not one who is saved – your salvation is not based on your knowledge.
My reply: I do not think it is minor viewpoints between Calvinists and those who are not. I believe Calvinism does interfere with every aspects of a person’s life, even to the point of not being able to give up sin in their lives. In addition, we are told we have to watch our life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers, see 1 Timothy 4:16.
You said: We all go through a learning curve. You probably do not hold to some of the same doctrine that you had when you were first born again. It is a learning process. God doesn’t give us all the info that we need at once and neither does He give us all the info that there is. Some of it has to be learned on our own and from others. And some of it has to be understood as incomprehensible. If you understand this, you do well.
My reply: The question is, are you willing to learn and accept something that the Calvinists do not accept?
You said: Lastly, about Calvinism, the discussion we have had about salvation is a side issue. Calvin held that God is One and in three Persons, that God is the creator of everything, that the Word of God is inerrant and infallible,
My reply: Calvin believes in things God did not say. Calvin goes against God’s word.
You said: that Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully Man, that salvation was by Grace through faith alone,
My reply: In Calvinism, there is no such thing as faith alone, since we do not even have faith. Calvinists say we do not have faith. Do not come back on and say yes we do after Jesus gives it to us. Calvinists say WE DO NOT HAVE FAITH. Stop twisting words, especially God’s words.
You said: that there is a judgement day – for man is responsible for his sins,
My reply: You need to stop saying that Calvinists beliefs make man responsible for his own sins. I tell you, you do not see it, but it is glaringly there. Stop only reading from Calvinists, since you advocate learning from others!
You said: You have called him a false teacher many times because he does not agree with your interpretation of man’s condition regarding salvation.
My reply: No such word from God that says, “No one can believe unless I make them born again.” The word says, John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?” They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.”
“‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time.”
Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
There are so many more scriptures. Calvinism mocks God! I must say it, Calvinism is evil.
You said: is there anyone that you know that has all the doctrines correct? Is everyone then a false teacher in your book except yourself? You have used the term incorrectly. Paul was using it for those who said observance of the law is what saves and those who were anti-christ; not believing that Jesus had come in the flesh and denying His deity.
My reply: You said, “Paul was using it for those who said observance of the law is what saves…” Of course, Ken, but Calvinists say we cannot even do works if we are not born again.
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ken hubbard
November 29, 2011
You said: “I am no baby Christian. As for you saying “your mind is corrupted by a sin nature,” I have the mind of Christ.” Well then, you will never have a mental disorder when you get old. Congratulations. If you do, you can blame it on God.
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AMG
November 29, 2011
The Word says He gave me a sound mind. The Word says I have the mind of Christ. You mock me too because I speak what God says.
I would like to show you more scriptures, but first I want to ask you if you are interested at all in what I have to say? Is there any interest at all?
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AMG
December 1, 2011
Ken, I know you will see this and read it. I want to give you some more scriptures to meditate on, even though you never answered back if you were interested or not.
NO TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. Acts 13:26.
NO TOTAL DEPRAVITY
“This man deserves to have you do this. Luke 7:4
NO TOTAL DEPRAVITY
but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. Acts 10:35
NO TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God made it plain to them.
Repent aloud to God through Jesus; say that you are sorry for accepting a lie that goes against His Word. Do not make excuses for why you followed falseness, just say you are sorry. Say it and call on the name of the Lord.
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Chris Fincher
December 24, 2011
If you are going to be so adamant about staying true to Scripture, then you MUST acknowledge that the WHOLE of Scripture teaches the Sovereignty of God, and human responsibility…….. If you have studied Reformed (as you say you have) then you have to see this.
So either Scripture contradicts itself or we arbitrarily fight for one over the other, when both of them are emphasized in the Bible….
Arminianism is a contradictory system. If you know anything about what Scriptures teaches ,the real logical conclusions one would come when giving the Scriptures an unbiased read is Universalism, or Reformed Theology.
Universalism is the logical outcome of everything you have been ranting about in this post, exalting freewill above God in my opinion… SCRIPTURE DOES NOT TEACH UNIVERSALISM.
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AMG
December 24, 2011
You said: If you are going to be so adamant about staying true to Scripture, then you MUST acknowledge that the WHOLE of Scripture teaches the Sovereignty of God, and human responsibility…….. If you have studied Reformed (as you say you have) then you have to see this.
My reply: You say, “Human responsibility”. Calvinists say we cannot even believe until AFTER God gives us the Holy Spirit. So, then where is human responsibility? Calvinists say we cannot even believe until AFTER God gives us His Spirit and makes us born again. Where is human responsibility in that? Calvinism goes against the Word of God, because we do not even get the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER WE BELIEVE! Those who obey God receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32). If we love Jesus and obey his teaching, God and Jesus will love us and they will come to make their home with us (John 14:23). That is the Word of God!
God is Sovereign! God made humans in His image. When Adam and Eve ate from the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, surely we know good from evil! Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of the world, and that just is not so. Jesus says the world’s sin is unbelief in him. Humans are responsible for their own sins! See John 16:8, 9, this scripture explains to us that the world’s sin is unbelief in Jesus. John 16:8, 9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
You said: So either Scripture contradicts itself or we arbitrarily fight for one over the other, when both of them are emphasized in the Bible….
My reply: Scripture does NOT contradict itself! Calvinists misunderstand the scriptures and twist it to mean what it does not. The Bible does NOT speak of Calvinism. Listen to people that are not Calvinists. Study more and search harder for God’s truth.
You said: Arminianism is a contradictory system. If you know anything about what Scriptures teaches ,the real logical conclusions one would come when giving the Scriptures an unbiased read is Universalism, or Reformed Theology.
My reply: First, I do not ever say that I follow a mere man such as Arminius. If Arminius believed in some truths of the Lord, then they are Jesus’ words, and not Arminius’. Arminius even believed in falseness such as infant baptism and real blood and body in the wine and bread. I am not Arminian. We are not even supposed to say we belong to men. I also am not a Universalist. Why do you not even try to listen to what I say? You write me off just as if you already know what I believe, yet so far, you got it wrong.
You said: Universalism is the logical outcome of everything you have been ranting about in this post, exalting freewill above God in my opinion… SCRIPTURE DOES NOT TEACH UNIVERSALISM.
My reply: Again, stop accusing me of beliefs I do not have. I am not a Universalist. You are quick to judge me but you do not even read anything from my blog site to get some idea of what I do believe. In addition, stop using the same old attack on non-Calvinists saying we do not believe God is Sovereign. God sent people to tell His servants what to do. The message came to me; I did what my Master said to do. So how does that make God not Sovereign?
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Chris Fincher
December 24, 2011
The righteousness of man is like a filthy rag before God. Humans are helpless, sinful worms, who can’t save themselves…
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AMG
December 24, 2011
Calvinists falsely use the scripture from Isaiah to support their doctrine. Calvinists use verse 6, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.” However, Calvinists do not mention the scripture just two verses up, verse 4, how Isaiah tells us about God who acts on behalf of those who wait for him. Then, verse 5 tells us how God will come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember His ways. Isaiah says, “But when we continued to sin against them…” This tells us that people WANT to do right, but cannot stop sinning against God’s ways. That is why we need a Savior. It does NOT mean what Calvinists say, that we CANNOT believe in God on our own.
Now, I just showed you from God’s word that Calvinism is false, are you going to give up your false beliefs for the Truth?
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Chris Fincher
December 24, 2011
Well still though the righteousness of men is still filthy rags before of God. And also, anyone who waits on the Lord, or does good in His sight, has been quickened by His grace to do so.
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Chris Fincher
December 24, 2011
Only through faith in Jesus Christ, and his name…
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AMG
December 24, 2011
What do you mean by saying, “Only through faith in Jesus Christ, and his name…?” In Isaiah, they did not yet have Jesus. Calvinists teach the false doctrine that we do NOT have faith, not without a quickening. I pray that you will love only God’s word, and give up all the rest.
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AMG
December 24, 2011
You said, “Anyone who waits on the Lord, or does good in His sight, has been quickened by His grace to do so.” THAT is NOT God’s Word! That is NOWHERE in the Bible. This is a serious matter. You worship man when you believe in the words of men and not God. Your worship to God is in vain. You cannot add to God’s word. The Bible says if anyone adds to God’s word, He will prove them to be a liar. Give up that false belief.
In Isaiah, we know that the Savior had not come yet to help people to stop sinning, to help people who WANTED to stop sinning. Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say God quickens people to believe in Him, or to will to do right.
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Chris Fincher
December 27, 2011
“23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
You can look at these verses from two perspectives: one being that God is sovereign, or we have received prevenient grace that has semi-enabled us to initiate faith… But faith is a gift of God, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”–Eph 2:18
“12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12-13
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AMG
December 27, 2011
You said: You can look at these verses from two perspectives: one being that God is sovereign, or we have received prevenient grace that has semi-enabled us to initiate faith… But faith is a gift of God, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”–Eph 2:18
My reply: In that scripture, “grace” is the gift, not faith. In addition, no one would know the faith that we have for Jesus, if Jesus did not come.
You said: “12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12-13
My reply: Not the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, this means that we did not talk God into letting us become His children. God made the plan for salvation through Jesus Christ before the creation of the world.
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Chris Fincher
December 27, 2011
Actually in the Ephesians passage the over arching subject of context is salvation, of which grace and faith are apart of… And you are right we did not talk God in to becoming His children aka, becoming heirs with Christ aka, salvation, of which grace and faith are apart of. So by grace you have been SAVED through faith, and that not of your self it is a gift of God.” And so we become initiated into the family of God by grace through faith in Christ, which is all a gift of the Sovereign God…
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AMG
December 28, 2011
Chris,
Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that we cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him, that is a manufactured doctrine. If it is not in God’s word, do NOT believe in it. The Jews had the law of WORKS, but now God saves us by grace, through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. We do not have to do the works of the law to receive this gift, if it by works then it would not be grace. Now, do know that we do not receive the Holy Spirit until we believe and obey. If faith were works, then Paul would not make the distinction between faith and works!
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Chris Fincher
December 28, 2011
I never said you couldn’t believe in Jesus after learning of Him… Just not on your own will. The Holy Spirit must initiate that belief, not you… “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8— “whosoever believes” John 3:16
We cannot believe or obey because we are spiritually dead in sin, until the holy spirit quickens us to believe, which is the new birth, then as a new creature in Christ we obey by God’s power and sustaining grace.
Two men can be sitting side by side, with the same education, same common sense, and both are in the same type sin, they hear the same words of the preacher; one believes and the other doesn’t, why is this? You can say that Paul never said faith was a work, but you can call it whatever you want. If you say that you exercised your own free will to believe more so than the man next to you, you are boasting. And if you are basing all this on a prevenient grace that lifted all mankind up out of a totally spiritually dead state in sin, enabling them to be able to choose, then that is a whole separate unbiblical issue…
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AMG
December 28, 2011
You said: I never said you couldn’t believe in Jesus after learning of Him… Just not on your own will.
My reply: You have to be kidding. If we cannot believe in Jesus of our own will—THEN WE CANNOT ALL BELIEVE IN JESUS AFTER LEARNING OF HIM.
You said: The Holy Spirit must initiate that belief, not you…
My reply: That is NOWHERE in the Bible, NOWHERE. If it is not in the Bible, then it is NOT God’s Word, if it is not God’s Word, then it is a manufactured doctrine.
You said: We cannot believe or obey because we are spiritually dead in sin, until the holy spirit quickens us to believe, which is the new birth, then as a new creature in Christ we obey by God’s power and sustaining grace.
My reply: Only believe in God’s word. Do not trade the truth for man’s lies.
You said: Two men can be sitting side by side, with the same education, same common sense, and both are in the same type sin, they hear the same words of the preacher; one believes and the other doesn’t, why is this?
My reply: We are not all the same, because everyone is different!
You said: You can say that Paul never said faith was a work, but you can call it whatever you want. If you say that you exercised your own free will to believe more so than the man next to you, you are boasting.
My reply: The Word of God says that I CAN boast in the Lord! 1 Corinthians 1:31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 10:17 But, “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.” Jeremiah 9:24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the LORD.
You said: And if you are basing all this on a prevenient grace that lifted all mankind up out of a totally spiritually dead state in sin, enabling them to be able to choose, then that is a whole separate unbiblical issue…
My reply: You are the only one with unbiblical beliefs.
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Chris Fincher
December 28, 2011
You: That is NOWHERE in the Bible, NOWHERE. If it is not in the Bible, then it is NOT God’s Word, if it is not God’s Word, then it is a manufactured doctrine
“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:7-8
You: Only believe in God’s word. Do not trade the truth for man’s lies.
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Eph 2:1-9
You said: We are not all the same, because everyone is different!
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.” Romans 3
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9
Yes you can boast in the Lord, but not your choosing to believe in him…
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? ! Cor 4
I bow down toward your holy temple
and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word. Psalm 138:2
I’m sure that your last statement is false… You would literally have to be very decisive to actually believe that..
I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone, to the Glory of God alone, of which all are biblical, in fact those sola’s are the heart of what Scripture teaches…
Or are you just making snide comments just for arguments sake…?
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AMG
December 28, 2011
You said: “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:7-8
My reply: We are born again AFTER we believe! AGAIN, we do NOT even get the Holy Spirit until after we believe and obey. Why do you NOT acknowledge that statement as the WORD OF GOD THAT IT IS? WHY?! ANSWER!
You said: 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Eph 2:1-9
My reply: NOWHERE do the scriptures say we cannot hear the message of Jesus Christ and believe. THAT IS HOW WE HAVE ACCESS TO SALVATION! THAT IS WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS!!! I HAVE GIVEN YOU MANY SCRIPTURES, BUT YOU JUST IGNORE THEM AND TWIST THEM AND GO AGAINST THEM. YOU ONLY LOVE CALVIN’S WORDS. We were dead in the trespasses and sins, that means we could not stop sinning even when we WANTED to. AGAIN, we were DEAD in the trespasses and SINS, which means we CANNOT, NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TRY, WE CANNOT STOP SINNING, because we are dead in the sins, so dead we can do nothing on our own to move ourselves to stop. That does not mean we cannot hear the message and believe. HEARING THE MESSAGE AND BELIEVING IS HOW WE HAVE ACCESS! HEARING THE MESSAGE AND BELIEVING DOES NOT ALONE MAKE US STOP SINNING, WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT IS WHAT SAVES US, AND THAT IS AFTER WE HEAR AND BELIEVE, WE RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. We were by NATURE children of wrath, because we followed the devil. BUT, WHILE WE WERE STILL IN THIS SINFUL DEATH WAY, GOD RAISED US WITH HIM IN CHRIST JESUS. WE DID NOTHING BUT BELIEVE, WE DID NOT DO ANY WORKS TO MAKE US CEREMONIALLY CLEAN, AS THE JEWS ONCE HAD TO DO. ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS CAN MAKE US CLEAN, AND THIS, GOD DID FOR US. Nowhere do the scriptures say we cannot believe after hearing the message! In fact, THE WORD OF GOD TELLS US TO BELIEVE! The Word of God says “believe,” Calvinists in-turn say to God, “we CANNOT,” and, “we WILL not.” God says to all people “believe,” Calvinists turn to all people and say, “no, you cannot believe.” Calvinists go AGAINST the Word of God.
You said: “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.” Romans 3:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9
My reply: Where God says, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy…” “THIS IS ABOUT ALLOWING THE GENTILES TO COME TO HIM FOR ETERNAL LIFE. GOD HAD MERCY ON THE GENTILES, THE GENTILES WHO WERE ONCE WITHOUT HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE AND A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. THIS IS ABOUT GOD HARDENING THE JEWS WHO DID NOT BELIEVE IN HIM, THE JEWS WHO WERE HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, THERE WERE JEWS WHO DID NOT BELIEVE IN HIM, THEY WERE HARDENED FOR NOT BELIEVING. THIS IS ABOUT GOD HARDENING UNBELIEVING JEWS SO THAT THEY COULD NOT HEAR THE MESSAGE OF JESUS AND BE SAVED, BECAUSE ONLY THE LOST SHEEP (BELIEVING JEWS) WERE TO HAVE SALVATION OFFERED TO THEM FIRST. ALL THE UNBELIEVING JEWS WERE HARDENED AND LEFT TO DISOBEDIENCE LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD AND ALL THE DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES. THEN THE GENTILES WHO WERE ONCE FAR FROM GOD COULD NOW HAVE THE CHANCE TO BE SAVED. BUT ONLY IF THEY BELIEVE. THE JEWS WHO DID NOT BELIEVE AND WERE HARDENED, THEY WERE NOT HARDENED FOREVER, THEY WERE CUT OFF BUT CAN BE GRAFTED BACK IN IF THEY DO NOT PERSIST IN UNBELIEF. CALVINISTS SAY THOSE GOD CHOOSE ARE SAVED, BUT GOD CHOOSE THE JEWS FIRST, YET THEY WERE STILL SINNERS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. IN THE BIBLE, GOD SAYS THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO GAVE SIN OFFERINGS BUT THEY WERE NOT REALLY SORRY FOR THEIR SINS. THAT GOD DID NOT LIKE! JEWS DOING THE WORKS OF THE LAW BUT THEIR HEARTS BEING FAR FROM GOD. SO, WE ARE NO LONGER SAVED BY WORKS, RATHER, THE JEWS ARE NO LONGER SAVED BY WORKS, WORKS OF THE LAW FOR CEREMONIAL RULES FOR THAT WERE SET IN PLACE FOR EARTHLY WORSHIP. We are ALL offered salvation, and by believing, by faith in Jesus Christ, we have access.
You said: Yes you can boast in the Lord, but not your choosing to believe in him…
My reply: STOP going against God’s Word! I do what my Master says to do. Calvinists say, “NO Master, I cannot.” A Calvinist who says they are Christian, they preach falseness to all others, so that people who want to have a relationship with God are stumped, they do not continue to grow in the Lord, no, they continue to grow in Calvinism. Most Calvinists become experts of their false doctrines, they read books after books of Calvinists explaining Calvinism. Many Calvinist in this stumped relationship with the Lord learn Greek, yet still they are just getting deeper and deeper into falseness.
You said: I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone, to the Glory of God alone, of which all are biblical, in fact those sola’s are the heart of what Scripture teaches…
My reply: You do not believe in scripture only. You do NOT believe in what God says.
You said: Or are you just making snide comments just for arguments sake…?
My reply: This for a split second made me defensive, but then I realized that that is something a blind person would say.
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Chris Fincher
December 28, 2011
I said:: “Yes you can boast in the Lord, but not your choosing to believe in him…
Your reply: “STOP going against God’s Word! I do what my Master says to do”.
I am starting to think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying by your answer to this statement. I said that you can boast in the Lord, but not your choosing to believe… I understand stand that Jesus calls us to believe, be we are NOT to boast because of and in our own willingness and power to believe, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith… that what of boasting, it is excluded…” How is this going against God’s Word as you claim. I am not saying that you can’t boast in salvation or something…
We believe because the holy spirit turns our hearts to believe. “48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13 It’s all in God’s hands.
Paul seems to be talking about salvation in Chap 9, and is reinforced by the continued context of Chap 8…
“14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God (what is a child of God but that of being saved….” Romans 8
“17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ”
“28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Paul had not forgot everything that he had written in Chapter 8 in Chap 9,
“7… Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”
This being a child of God is salvation, redemption, etc… and yes indeed it’s main focus in on Israel here.
“they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
what is this verse except that it is that Jacob was foreordained to believe and become a Child of God as a result of the Mercy of God, and Esau was foreordained to not believe, therefore his heart was hardened, solely because God DID NOT have mercy on him. All this hardening because of unbelief was all foreordained by God, having nothing to do with any moral decision form either one of them… “they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” It indeed may be talking about the Chosen seed flow, but still, the language that God uses to say that he loves Jacob, and hated Esau, is very salvific language nonetheless…
“19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”
What is this language of “wrath”, “in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy… WHICH HE HAS PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR GLORY… even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Indeed…”
What are the riches of his glory, but that of the culmination of salvation if Christ? What has he prepared beforehand for this glory? “Even us whom he has called. Jew’s and Gentiles” I might add with the implication of God calling the the Jew and Gentiles to salvation, of which you say that it was just opening the door to the Gentiles per se, but Paul’s logic of God’s strict election of Jacob and Esau, for seed flow and also the inevitable hardening through unbelief still stands form verse 11, also includes the Gentiles in this Grace of election, and also that that were indeed they were shown a mercy in even that God would allow them in on salvation… And so the implications in Chap 9 are also very salvific..
“God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.” Romans 11:2
“4…But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”
What is this remnant kept for other than that of salvation…
You were appointed to eternal life to believe if you do, and so for everyone else who believes so that God’s election might stand… That is Paul’s logic all through Romans, and he applies it clearly to both Jew’s and Gentiles.
I do believe what God says, I know that Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life”, and that the law have given by Moses; but grace and TRUTH through Christ. And also I believe that Scripture is God-breathed, in which is the power of God unto salvation.
I just don’t emphatically look for free will in the bible like you do. That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe God’s word, that is a false statement, but that’s okay; I know your just saying that because I don’t agree with all your free will ideas………
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AMG
December 28, 2011
You said: I am starting to think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying by your answer to this statement. I said that you can boast in the Lord, but not your choosing to believe… I understand stand that Jesus calls us to believe, be we are NOT to boast because of and in our own willingness and power to believe, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith… that what of boasting, it is excluded…” How is this going against God’s Word as you claim. I am not saying that you can’t boast in salvation or something…
My reply: You nullify God’s word when you say things that are NOT God’s word. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we cannot believe, and therefore cannot boast in the Lord for believing. Stop saying things that are man’s assumptions and not God’s word.
You said: We believe because the holy spirit turns our hearts to believe. “48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13 It’s all in God’s hands.
My reply: AGAIN, NOWHERE in the Bible does it say God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to be born again and then believe! We believe, THEN we are given the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles WHO WERE ALL ONCE EXCLUDED from salvation, all the Gentiles who were there at that moment listening to the message, all the ONCE ALL EXCLUDED GENTILES, all of them that were there, THEY believed. You do not understand because you accept words from men. You accept words that are not from God.
You said: “they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
My reply: God said that the older will serve the younger before either one done anything good or bad BECAUSE God foreknows EVERYONE. It is human wisdom that makes the first born the one who will receive the ownership of the inheritance, BUT God’s ways are NOT OUR ways, for God chooses the second born many times. God knew that Esau would give up his inheritance for a bowl of soup. God knew what Esau’s heart was like, even before he was born, even before he did anything good or bad. God knows when we do things that appear to be good, but do not really desire Him above all else. Esau is like the Jews, the first born to God, yet God loved Jacob, Jacob is symbolic of the believing Gentiles. Jacob fought, Jacob wrestled with God and people for the inheritance. Jacob even tricked his brother for it. Jacob wanted God’s inheritance more than ANYTHING. And that is who Israel is, it is the people who want God’s Truth more than anything. NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say what Calvinists teach.
You said: what is this verse except that it is that Jacob was foreordained to believe and become a Child of God as a result of the Mercy of God, and Esau was foreordained to not believe, therefore his heart was hardened, solely because God DID NOT have mercy on him.
My reply: I want to be done with you! I give you only God’s beautiful powerful truth, and what do you do? You do nothing but repeat lies from Calvin! NOWHERE does it say that God made Jacob believe. DO NOT LEAN TO THE LEFT OR TO THE RIGHT OF GOD”S WORD!
You said: “19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
My reply: That is about the Jews being hardened to NOT believe, because those Jews did not love God with their hearts anyway. BUT, they are NOT hardened forever, IF THEY DO NOT PERSISTENT IN UNBELIEF! Jesus said when he is raised up, he will draw ALL men to him. After Jesus died and was raised from the dead, all can come to Jesus, even the once hardened Jews.
You said: I do believe what God says, I know that Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life”, and that the law have given by Moses; but grace and TRUTH through Christ. And also I believe that Scripture is God-breathed, in which is the power of God unto salvation.
My reply: YOU MOCK GOD! GOD SAYS “BELIEVE.” CALVINISTS SAY GOD SAYS, “NO, WE CANNOT.” GOD SAYS, “BELIEVE.” CALVINISTS SAY GOD SAYS, “NO ONE CAN BELIEVE.” Calvinists go against MANY scriptures. Calvinists go against the deep things of God.
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reyjacobs
June 10, 2012
Calvinism drives people away from Christianity. The more they insist that Romans teaches Calvinism the more and more people get sick of the book of Romans and want to flush it down the toilet with the Koran. I know I do anyway. Christianity without Romans would be Christianity without Calvinists. It would be like heaven on earth. AMEN.
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AMG
June 10, 2012
I think a lot people do not even know their denomination believes in Calvinism.
I hate Calvinism, but then again, I do not like any false doctrines. Like Peter says about Paul, “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
Thanks for stopping by, and so glad you are not a Calvinist.
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reyjacobs
June 10, 2012
making sure i subscribes
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